What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[TRANSPONDER]

And it seems to me that i was presenting your position regarding cancer - remission correctly. That, as an example of inexplicable healings, as an unknown and unexplained phenomenon. I already explained why relating this to prayers is no valid evidence. I would assume, and I have heard, that this sort of thing happens without prayer, and that it doesn't regularly happen with prayer as it would at least be a known effect with a subject of study if that were the case. So argument from cancer remission is no evidence and only someone with Godfaith looking to prop the faith up would think it was. I'd say I had you bang to rights, there.

Yes. How often do you get someone excitedly proclaiming "I didn't pray to God and my cancer went into remission"? It's all a case of acknowledging the few hits and ignoring the multitude of misses.

Yes. I can feel my own embarrassment in my post, trying to validate that mystery healings also happen outside of religion and in other religions. I assume this is so because Christianity (or even religion) is not (apparently) established and known as a surefire cure for cancer. Like 'Christians know prayer won't work', it is a general understanding of what the situation is. It was the same with NDE's and the clamour of Christians to credit them to Christianity. It was hard to find any accounts of NDEs in other religions or even in atheists, but they were there and did not support a Christian afterlife. I suppose (from negative evidence) this is the case with unexplained healings, but I suspect (with a sinking stomach) that it is only examples where Christians have prayed, that will get any attention.

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #142]

I noticed you ignored my arguments. Are you going to try to show how they are either invalid or unsound or both?

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

It just puts prayer in the same category as rubbing a rabbit's foot for good luck.

Can you explain how possibly a rabbit's foot in principle would be the cause of their healing?

Just apply all the reasoning you used to credit it to your God. It works in exactly the same way.

Yes. I can see why A4G sees it as absurd to compare God to a rabbit's foot. After all, it is a bit of biological waste; God is a great and mysterious being that can do stuff. It is just the same with the 'Santa' analogy "Santa is nothing like God". They always say it. They miss the point that in the scientific and evidential level one has no more explanatory validity than the other.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #142]

I noticed you ignored my arguments. Are you going to try to show how they are either invalid or unsound or both?

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

It just puts prayer in the same category as rubbing a rabbit's foot for good luck.

Can you explain how possibly a rabbit's foot in principle would be the cause of their healing?

Just apply all the reasoning you used to credit it to your God. It works in exactly the same way.

But it doesn't because there is no way in principle that a rabbit's foot could answer a prayer, yet in principle God can.

[POI]

I can't stress this enough... In regards to downs syndrome, cerebral palsy, and amputees (alone), it is pointless to pray for a reversal. He either does not respond because:

1) He's not there
2) He will always say no.

For me because of the experiences I have had, A. I would be unreasonable to think B.

For you, it might be B, especially if you never looked deeply into the metaphysical arguments for and against God.

Now you are starting to sound like some of the Mormons I have debated. They claim that if you do not meditate deeply enough, while reading their Book, you will not feel anything from any external agency. Is it more reasonable to believe they TOO are receiving responses, but from YOUR specific brand of god? If so, does God ever correct them, and say... "Psst.... You are never going to get your own planet to rule some day. And oh, BTW, Jesus is not from the planet Colab either."

Please also remember, we have over 2 billion 'confirmed' Christians, of all flavors. And I highly doubt many/most ever delved into many/any "metaphysical arguments". Please also remember, that I was a believer for decades. and fell away, because after about 3 decades of one way dialogue, I started to really question my beliefs. Hence, what IS the point of prayer, if he exists, and decides to completely hide for 30+ years?

Thus, I ask again, if god responds to you, then ask Him to contact me But, as I've told countless others, I won't hold my breath.

That would be incorrect. After one has enough experiences, those experiences come with sets of data that rules out other such beings.

A Scientologist could say the exact same thing. Your bias is shinning through, once again. Here... Let's try a little experiment....

Ask this god if the author of Genesis was meant to be a literal account or allegorical? Please tell me what he says, if/when he ever answers. I can then ask other Christians the exact same question. And guess what? I might get differing answers. And mind you, all these folks TOO claim god talks to them. So this god is either "pranking" some of them, because their answers won't match, or they are too stupid to intake god's information. or, they are all just talking to themselves and using their existing perceived "answers(s)" as 'god communication.'

(AFG) You mean, you think God ought to answer every prayer or the prayers you think he ought to answer, but you are a finite being. It is like when you were a child, maybe you got really made at your mom or dad because you did not understand why they punished you the way they did. When you got older and understood they were preparing you to get on in the world, then you knew just how misdirected your anger was.

That is how I think you will feel once you see the world for how it is and begin to understand why it is that way.

Either way, I don't see any reason to take seriously your claims that God ought to answer the prayers you think he ought to.

If you wish to use bible, you will need to go to the early church fathers and the church. Why would a Christian care how an atheist interprets the bible? They wouldn't. And Catholics are different than protestants because we believe in the oral tradition about how to properly understand the bible.

So basically, all you have is, you think God ought to be such and such a way. I disagree with how you think God ought to be.

(POI) Another circle now.... You are applying (add hoc / post hoc) excuses. (i.e.)

In regards to downs syndrome, cerebral palsy, and amputees (alone), it is pointless to pray for a reversal. He either does not respond because:

1) He's not there
2) He will always say no.

(AFG) You assume I don't.

(POI) No. I assume He will not answer your request to contact me because:

1) He's not there
2) He will always say no.

Which means your prayer request is pointless either way.

(AFG) Then why not look into it yourself and see how the church has understood the verses.

(POI) I have, many times. Again, was a Christian for 30+ years....

(AFG) You have done this a few times now. You misrepresent what I say. Show me where I said pray for a quick death. Rather, what I said is, one might pray to be cured, but the answer to that prayer might come as a good death. A good death is better than a slow one, yes?

(POI) That's because you have missed my point. I was only speaking about (3) specific conditions. NONE of which would someone logically pray for quick deaths in their conditions. That's my whole point.... What's your excuse for these (3) conditions, and god not reversing them? Your given unjustified excuses, thus far, do not look to 'gel' with the Bible.... And since you already tied to demonstrate that god answers the call for downs syndrome, you have already confirmed this request is on the "acceptable request list".

(AFG) Or God is needed when someone has a disease that humans have never successfully cured, then he prays and gets well.

(POI) You continue to ignore my point. My point is:

In regards to downs syndrome, cerebral palsy, and amputees (alone), it is pointless to pray for a reversal. He either does not respond because:

1) He's not there
2) He will always say no.

[POI]

But it doesn't because there is no way in principle that a rabbit's foot could answer a prayer, yet in principle God can.

So if someone rubs a 'lucky rabbit's foot' for a time, and never prays to your god, and their perceived 'impossible request' is later granted, they cannot 'logically conclude' it was because of the rabbit's foot?

Further, if you pray to your god, for my uncle's cerebral palsy to go away, and I merely rub my lucky rabbit's foot, will we see any differing results --- between your requests, verses mine? Things to think about.....

[POI]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #142]

I noticed you ignored my arguments. Are you going to try to show how they are either invalid or unsound or both?

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

It just puts prayer in the same category as rubbing a rabbit's foot for good luck.

I have to say... Great response! I think I will 'borrow and run with it', if you do not mind....? Oops, I already did

[POI]

Communication

I will need a little elaboration here...

Is it two way communication?
How do you know?
What does this communication entail exactly?
Do you ask for anything in this communication?
Does he ever grant what you ask?
How do you know?

It is usually the only way for someone not only to communicate with God, but also to establish a relationship.

Roughly speaking, it forms a pattern to an individual such that the subconsciousness of that person can recognize to believe and to strengthen his/her faith at the same time.

God does it this way because a usual communication is under the constrain that one relies on his faith to be saved. That is, the communication will has the effect of strengthening his belief by faith. Another way of communication is the type how God communicates with His chosen witnesses which are referred to as the OT prophets.

Are you saying god (does or does not) answer petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests for physical reversals of conditions? If so, where does God disclose this caveat, when he speaks about prayer?

Because, what you have stated thus far, is unfalsifiable. Hence, you get carte blanche to say what you just said, and are secure to know that I cannot prove a negative.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #153]

So as not to go in circles, I can sum all this up with what I have already said.

God not answering some prayers doesn't mean ALL prayer is pointless, if God does answer some prayers or if prayers are beneficial at all to some people.

Also, one could argue that the point of prayer is personal benefit like one gets from meditation. That is a point, and thus not pointless.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #154]

So if someone rubs a 'lucky rabbit's foot' for a time, and never prays to your god, and their perceived 'impossible request' is later granted, they cannot 'logically conclude' it was because of the rabbit's foot?

This question baffles my mind. I could probably just leave my response as that and most people would understand why. I am wondering, did he really just ask this question? Is he being serious?

Did he not think about it first? He had to of.

A rabbit's foot in principle cannot answer prayers, so it would not be logical to conclude that it did.

God in principle can answer prayers...

I sure hope this post was an attempt to troll the topic because you are bored.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #154]

I think it is time to move onto my argument.

What is the point of prayer? ANSWER: To receive some benefit.

And now is the following argument valid? It is, but I will give you the chance to show otherwise. It is Modes Ponens. That will help you figure out if it is valid or not.

And is it sound? Are the premises true? If they are false, please demonstrate so.

If prayer offers any benefit to some people, then prayer is not pointless for those people.
Prayer offers benefits to some people
therefore, prayer is not pointless to those people.

If the argument is both valid and sound, then prayer has a point, which is to receive some benefit. It doesn't matter what that benefit is because any benefit at all proves that prayer has a point and is thus not pointless.

If you meant to discuss something else, maybe ask a different question than "What's the point of prayer?"

[POI]

God not answering some prayers doesn't mean ALL prayer is pointless, if God does answer some prayers or if prayers are beneficial at all to some people.

Also, one could argue that the point of prayer is personal benefit like one gets from meditation. That is a point, and thus not pointless.

Your assessment is flawed. You state god does not answer some prayers. Okay. In and of itself, I guess you can make a case for that, such as asking god to do evil or to give me magic powers. But the flaws exist, as it relates to cancer (vs) cerebral palsy, for example. God intervenes by aiding in the healing of cancer at X%, but with (cerebral palsy, amputees, and downs syndrome), 0%? He would logically be roughly answering the same amount of downs syndrome and amputees requests, as with cancer. But this is NOT the case.

You already tried to justify that god deems downs syndrome as an acceptable prayer request. But he answers none of them? You then proceeded to argue that he wants to remain hidden. You then also attempted to argue that he does grant such requests, but only to the extremely faithful, and in private, so they cannot prove it. Your excuses go on from there....

And your claim is that god provides the personal benefit in meditation. This can also be equally argued of Yoga. Thus far, you have made ZERO case that a god is required in ANY of it...

The most likely conclusion, is either:

1) God exists, and answers no prayers -- (because stuff that does happen, can happen without necessary direct intervention of any claimed external god-agency). Which is contrary to the claims of the Bible....
2) God is not there at all, and you are talking to yourself.