What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[Diagoras]

My faith is only growing and I accept abiogenesis, evolution, cosmic evolution, and all science. Physics is particularly amazing at showing the wonders of God.

<bolding mine>

Interesting that you claim to accept all science, after you said this before:

It is also true that science hasn't proven anything. It merely offers evidence for things, and the knowledge we claim to have from science is tentative.

As science provides more answers, theres less room for a deity in this universe. Its God of the Gaps territory.

[AquinasForGod]

My faith is only growing and I accept abiogenesis, evolution, cosmic evolution, and all science. Physics is particularly amazing at showing the wonders of God.

<bolding mine>

Interesting that you claim to accept all science, after you said this before:

It is also true that science hasn't proven anything. It merely offers evidence for things, and the knowledge we claim to have from science is tentative.

As science provides more answers, theres less room for a deity in this universe. Its God of the Gaps territory.

I don't see the contradiction. I accept science and that is precisely what science is. Do you think science offers more than tentative knowledge?

[brunumb]

My faith is only growing and I accept abiogenesis, evolution, cosmic evolution, and all science. Physics is particularly amazing at showing the wonders of God.

<bolding mine>

Interesting that you claim to accept all science, after you said this before:

It is also true that science hasn't proven anything. It merely offers evidence for things, and the knowledge we claim to have from science is tentative.

As science provides more answers, theres less room for a deity in this universe. Its God of the Gaps territory.

I don't see the contradiction. I accept science and that is precisely what science is. Do you think science offers more than tentative knowledge?

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

[AquinasForGod]

My faith is only growing and I accept abiogenesis, evolution, cosmic evolution, and all science. Physics is particularly amazing at showing the wonders of God.

<bolding mine>

Interesting that you claim to accept all science, after you said this before:

It is also true that science hasn't proven anything. It merely offers evidence for things, and the knowledge we claim to have from science is tentative.

As science provides more answers, theres less room for a deity in this universe. Its God of the Gaps territory.

I don't see the contradiction. I accept science and that is precisely what science is. Do you think science offers more than tentative knowledge?

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

What does wishful thinking mean? And after you define it can you explain how it applies to believe in God. Thanks.

But suppose for a moment that you are right. Suppose religion doesn't offer peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc, which it so clearly does, but suppose it offers none of that stuff and it only offers wishful thinking and fanciful dreams, that is still more than atheism offers. Atheism offers nothing at all. It is merely a lack of.

[Diagoras]

Weve veered slightly off topic so I thought Id check back to the last prayer-related point made:

We made progress as to if prayer can have a point. It can, just like meditation is not pointless. In fact, prayer is very much relaxing and causes us to feel renewed much like meditation can. So even if we never get a prayer answered, it is a good practice like meditation.

However, there is the possibility that any result that helps our life in some way could be attributed to a god, spirit ancestor, fairy godmother, guardian angel, Fate smiling on us, Auntie Jean guiding us from Heaven, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or indeed any such fanciful notion.

You can only disprove this possibility by <.>, which you cannot do.

(fill in the blank as necessary)

[brunumb]

What does wishful thinking mean? And after you define it can you explain how it applies to believe in God. Thanks.

But suppose for a moment that you are right. Suppose religion doesn't offer peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc, which it so clearly does, but suppose it offers none of that stuff and it only offers wishful thinking and fanciful dreams, that is still more than atheism offers. Atheism offers nothing at all. It is merely a lack of.

I don't deny that religion can give peace of mind, alleviate fear and so on for many. That doesn't make any of it true. It is no different from taking a drug to achieve the same thing. Wishful thinking comes into play when you expect God to look after you and forgive all your sins and let you live for ever in paradise singing his praises. It is absurd to counter that by saying atheism offers nothing, as if the highest bidder has the truth. If people want to cocoon themselves in a fantasy world because they can't face reality, fair enough. But please don't promote it as truth and expect others to buy into it without question.

[POI]

My faith is only growing and I accept abiogenesis, evolution, cosmic evolution, and all science. Physics is particularly amazing at showing the wonders of God.

<bolding mine>

Interesting that you claim to accept all science, after you said this before:

It is also true that science hasn't proven anything. It merely offers evidence for things, and the knowledge we claim to have from science is tentative.

As science provides more answers, theres less room for a deity in this universe. Its God of the Gaps territory.

I don't see the contradiction. I accept science and that is precisely what science is. Do you think science offers more than tentative knowledge?

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

What does wishful thinking mean? And after you define it can you explain how it applies to believe in God. Thanks.

But suppose for a moment that you are right. Suppose religion doesn't offer peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc, which it so clearly does, but suppose it offers none of that stuff and it only offers wishful thinking and fanciful dreams, that is still more than atheism offers. Atheism offers nothing at all. It is merely a lack of.

If we harken back, to where you first engaged this topic, was THIS your position about (the point of prayer) all along? Or, instead, after examination, is this the argument you have instead had to resort to? (i.e.) "Prayer isn't completely pointless. The point of prayer is to offer "peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc".

There seems to be no more of a point to prayer, than in a point to Yoga. All of the above can also be achieved, just the same.

Please remember the large distinction between Yoga and prayer, however.... In prayer, you ask some agency for stuff, and he gives it to you. I listed the many verses which assert as much... You have made NO demonstration that he actually does so. This is exactly why I laid out specific topics, which would remove the possibility of (nature/human interventions/other) from the equation, and only leave some asked supernatural agency. You failed this task repeatedly.

[AquinasForGod]

My faith is only growing and I accept abiogenesis, evolution, cosmic evolution, and all science. Physics is particularly amazing at showing the wonders of God.

<bolding mine>

Interesting that you claim to accept all science, after you said this before:

It is also true that science hasn't proven anything. It merely offers evidence for things, and the knowledge we claim to have from science is tentative.

As science provides more answers, theres less room for a deity in this universe. Its God of the Gaps territory.

I don't see the contradiction. I accept science and that is precisely what science is. Do you think science offers more than tentative knowledge?

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

What does wishful thinking mean? And after you define it can you explain how it applies to believe in God. Thanks.

But suppose for a moment that you are right. Suppose religion doesn't offer peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc, which it so clearly does, but suppose it offers none of that stuff and it only offers wishful thinking and fanciful dreams, that is still more than atheism offers. Atheism offers nothing at all. It is merely a lack of.

If we harken back, to where you first engaged this topic, was THIS your position about (the point of prayer) all along? Or, instead, after examination, is this the argument you have instead had to resort to? (i.e.) "Prayer isn't completely pointless. The point of prayer is to offer "peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc".

There seems to be no more of a point to prayer, than in a point to Yoga. All of the above can also be achieved, just the same.

Please remember the large distinction between Yoga and prayer, however.... In prayer, you ask some agency for stuff, and he gives it to you. I listed the many verses which assert as much... You have made NO demonstration that he actually does so. This is exactly why I laid out specific topics, which would remove the possibility of (nature/human interventions/other) from the equation, and only leave some asked supernatural agency. You failed this task repeatedly.

If you fail to remember the examples, then there is no point in going into it again. It is there for future readers.

[POI]

My faith is only growing and I accept abiogenesis, evolution, cosmic evolution, and all science. Physics is particularly amazing at showing the wonders of God.

<bolding mine>

Interesting that you claim to accept all science, after you said this before:

It is also true that science hasn't proven anything. It merely offers evidence for things, and the knowledge we claim to have from science is tentative.

As science provides more answers, theres less room for a deity in this universe. Its God of the Gaps territory.

I don't see the contradiction. I accept science and that is precisely what science is. Do you think science offers more than tentative knowledge?

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

That's an awful lot of tentativeness yet it has driven us forward using knowledge built on tentative knowledge. On the other hand, religion offers no knowledge, just wishful thinking and fanciful dreams.

What does wishful thinking mean? And after you define it can you explain how it applies to believe in God. Thanks.

But suppose for a moment that you are right. Suppose religion doesn't offer peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc, which it so clearly does, but suppose it offers none of that stuff and it only offers wishful thinking and fanciful dreams, that is still more than atheism offers. Atheism offers nothing at all. It is merely a lack of.

If we harken back, to where you first engaged this topic, was THIS your position about (the point of prayer) all along? Or, instead, after examination, is this the argument you have instead had to resort to? (i.e.) "Prayer isn't completely pointless. The point of prayer is to offer "peace of mind, alleviating fear, brotherhood, etc".

There seems to be no more of a point to prayer, than in a point to Yoga. All of the above can also be achieved, just the same.

Please remember the large distinction between Yoga and prayer, however.... In prayer, you ask some agency for stuff, and he gives it to you. I listed the many verses which assert as much... You have made NO demonstration that he actually does so. This is exactly why I laid out specific topics, which would remove the possibility of (nature/human interventions/other) from the equation, and only leave some asked supernatural agency. You failed this task repeatedly.

If you fail to remember the examples, then there is no point in going into it again. It is there for future readers.

Oh, the ones reading along already know what excuses you provided. I can recall them too. But if some wish to trek through the entire exchange, to find them for themselves, they can have-at-it...