The proposition for debate is that when one takes the tales of Genesis literally, one becomes intellectually disabled, at least temporarily. Taking Genesis literally requires one to reject biology (which includes evolution) and other sciences in favor of 'magic.' Geology and radiometric dating have to be rejected since the Earth formed only about 6000 years ago, during the same week the Earth was made (in a single day).
Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.
The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
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The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #551For a few hours out of eternity? Big deal. And to save us from what? From what he is going to do to us.
Someone has a very low threshold for caring. Sheesh.
His design was pretty ordinary so the reason is probably that he is incompetent or he doesn't really care.
Nope. It is not a fallen wicked world. That's just a trope used to convince the gullible that it is our fault rather than God's that everything went down the gurgler. Every time God has tried to do or fix anything, he has stuffed things up. His sycophantic followers cover for him and blame us instead. Funny how an omnipotent being can be so easily foiled in his plans by mere humans.
All part of God's plan. Isn't that the go-to excuse?
Take this imaginary God fella out of the equation and it will all make a heap more sense.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #552[Replying to dad1 in post #544]
Prove that heaven exists, or angels. You can't of course. These are both just made up terms to describe imaginary things. There's no reason to believe that either of them actually exist, and certainly no empirical evidence that they do.Prove it. Prove that no window of heaven opened and closed? That is like saying no angel ever visited earth! prove it! You have one option. Admit ignorance, because you have no way to know either way. You cannot speak from a position of knowledge or authority.
Don't you think that "space..where the stars are" is above our planet? Of course, if the "firmament" were interstellar space (the space between the stars), then your argument makes even less sense. Liquid water cannot survive in interstellar space because both pressure and temperature are far below the triple point of water. If there were some store of liquid water in this imaginary "firmament" there's no way it could get to Earth over the distances involved. The whole concept is thermodynamically impossible, but ancient story tellers did not know anything about thermodynamics and were free to make up anything they liked to explain things, as they clearly did. We know now that it is all wrong.I pointed out that there was water above the firmament (space..where the stars are) That is probably the water that came down in the windows. Not some mystery water hovering over the planet.
This is just old bible nonsense. There is no "firmament."The stars are all IN the firmament. It is that firmament that divided the waters below it and above it. No water needs to be in the firmament where the stars are.
Probably? Now that's convincing empirical evidence. And conduits to the inner earth opened? This is just more hand-waving and preaching without any evidence whatsoever. Anyone can make up stories when there are no requirements to tie them to reality. This is called fiction. The idea here is to back up claims with some kind of evidence beyond simply quoting bible stories. You've yet to do that even once.The windows were right here. The water they allowed to enter earth by opening was probably from the other side of the firmament. (space-where the stars are) There were also conduits to the inner earth that opened at the same time, also allowing water to come up to the surface.
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John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #553Saved from the choice we made for death.
The design of people is extraordinary in every way from the time we enter life till we leave it here.His design was pretty ordinary so the reason is probably that he is incompetent or he doesn't really care.
Nope. It is not a fallen wicked world.
Never read the news? Never had friends or enemies? Never been robbed or raped or slandered etc? Sorry, it is not paradise on earth today.
I don't know where you got that idea. When man rejects His gifts, it is man that will get foiled.Funny how an omnipotent being can be so easily foiled in his plans by mere humans.
Serial killers cannot blame God for their crimes actually. WE are responsible for our choices. When our plan is opposed to His plan, then we see the sort of world we have today.All part of God's plan. Isn't that the go-to excuse?
Most people through all ages have realized there were spirits. Untold scores of millions of people have known Jesus when they invited Him in to their lives. The only imagination involved is from those who refused and imagine everyone is lying.Take this imaginary God fella out of the equation and it will all make a heap more sense.
Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #554Millions of people know God and communicate with Him daily. Their lives have been changed and affected. You are in no position to say God is not with them. Calling it all imaginary is a position from gross ignorance.
Most humans of all ages had reasons to know spirits were real. Untold millions of people today know Jesus came in to their lives in a big and real way. The world is full of evidence. The problem is that when scoffers and people that think they know it all and are little gods look at any of this evidence, they cannot see God in it. If God healed me or saved me from lions or etc etc the empirical evidence would be that I was still alive. Those who hate God might come along and say that God had nothing to do with it because they observe no God after the fact. Or before the fact. Or during the fact! Since they have no empirical evidence for their chosen interpretation of the evidence, their doubts are baseless.There's no reason to believe that either of them actually exist, and certainly no empirical evidence that they do.
Yes. In the case of the water above the firmament, it is even beyond the observable universe.Don't you think that "space..where the stars are" is above our planet?
Of course, if the "firmament" were interstellar space (the space between the stars), then your argument makes even less sense. Liquid water cannot survive in interstellar space because both pressure and temperature are far below the triple point of water.
You missed the point of the wormhole comparison. Like in science fiction, they had a stargate, where people, if I recall, passed through the portal, and ended up in some other far far away place. So the water would not have traveled through the firmament of outer space, just through the windows that allowed them to pass. Maybe we should call the windows of heaven stargates so you got some inkling of the concept? I thought 'wormholes' would do the trick, apparently not for you.
As explained above the water above where the stars are would have been beyond where the stars are, not in this same area.If there were some store of liquid water in this imaginary "firmament" there's no way it could get to Earth over the distances involved.
It is so advanced, actually, that even modern so called science folks like you struggle to grasp the complexity and magnitude of the portals that opened. Man's science is like caveman science to God! He calls the wisdom of this world 'foolishness'.The whole concept is thermodynamically impossible, but ancient story tellers did not know anything about thermodynamics and were free to make up anything they liked to explain things, as they clearly did. We know now that it is all wrong.
How about stars, are there stars? They were made in the firmament. This is not about you liking the world for where stars are or not!This is just old bible nonsense. There is no "firmament."
Probably?
From what the bible says, yes, probably, because the only water mentioned up there was the other side of the firmament. Call it an educated bible based guess. One thing we can say is that science sure doesn't know! That means you have no empirical evidence either way!
And conduits to the inner earth opened? This is just more hand-waving and preaching without any evidence whatsoever.
No. That is an important bible fact, 101. There was a climate change! There was a change in the way life on earth got it's water. We could say a complete weather system change for the planet! Rather than a system where water came from evaporation and the clouds, it was a mist that came from fountains of the deep. It had never rained in the way we think of rain before Noah. There used to be a lot of water deep under the earth that was carried up in passages called fountains of the deep. I suspect that the Yucatan crater may be a leftover remnant of one such fountain of the deep. There may be another one over somewhere near the North Sea if I recall, etc. You see, iridium is said by science to come from space, or deep in the earth. No? That was where the flood waters came from also. Sure enough, we have a worldwide layer replete with iridium! But I digress, that is a separate thread.
That is what you have been doing here if you notice. Making up stories with no evidence that there were no windows of heaven opened, no God, etc etc etc. Stick to what you know.Anyone can make up stories when there are no requirements to tie them to reality.
The idea here is to back up claims with some kind of evidence You've yet to do that even once for any of your bible related claims, or your so called science about what time is like in the far universe. Etc etc. Work on that.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #555[Replying to dad1 in post #554]
I made no mention of gods ... the words were heaven, and angels. I don't believe any of these exist, including gods, but for the record my comments were not about gods.Millions of people know God and communicate with Him daily. Their lives have been changed and affected. You are in no position to say God is not with them. Calling it all imaginary is a position from gross ignorance.
Again, I did not mention gods but rather heaven and angels. In any case, if a lion was headed for you for lunch and decided to dart away and go after a gazelle instead, you can't say that god saved you from the lion any more than that the lion decided it would rather dine on gazelle for some reason, without any input from a god. You being alive is not empirical evidence that any god was involved in the lion's decision.Most humans of all ages had reasons to know spirits were real. Untold millions of people today know Jesus came in to their lives in a big and real way. The world is full of evidence. The problem is that when scoffers and people that think they know it all and are little gods look at any of this evidence, they cannot see God in it. If God healed me or saved me from lions or etc etc the empirical evidence would be that I was still alive. Those who hate God might come along and say that God had nothing to do with it because they observe no God after the fact. Or before the fact. Or during the fact! Since they have no empirical evidence for their chosen interpretation of the evidence, their doubts are baseless.
What? So you think there is some source of water beyond the observable universe, and it can get to Earth via wormhole-like passages? You might try your luck at wild science fiction.Yes. In the case of the water above the firmament, it is even beyond the observable universe.
I didn't miss it ... just disregarded it as a joke, or nonsense. More purely made up science fiction.You missed the point of the wormhole comparison. Like in science fiction, they had a stargate, where people, if I recall, passed through the portal, and ended up in some other far far away place. So the water would not have traveled through the firmament of outer space, just through the windows that allowed them to pass. Maybe we should call the windows of heaven stargates so you got some inkling of the concept? I thought 'wormholes' would do the trick, apparently not for you.
So now you're claiming that there is some distance from Earth where stars cease to exist and there is water beyond this point? This is getting crazier by the minute.As explained above the water above where the stars are would have been beyond where the stars are, not in this same area.
Sure ... magic portals in space that transport water. Got it.It is so advanced, actually, that even modern so called science folks like you struggle to grasp the complexity and magnitude of the portals that opened. Man's science is like caveman science to God! He calls the wisdom of this world 'foolishness'.
It doesn't matter what word you use, the concept is demonstrably false. There is no "firmament" ... what do you think that actually is?How about stars, are there stars? They were made in the firmament. This is not about you liking the world for where stars are or not!
Its certainly a wild guess ... I'll give you that.Call it an educated bible based guess.
Wow ... not sure what to say about such a ridiculous scenario. More wild guessing obviously. And Noah wasn't a real person ... humans don't live to 950 years (now, or ever).No. That is an important bible fact, 101. There was a climate change! There was a change in the way life on earth got it's water. We could say a complete weather system change for the planet! Rather than a system where water came from evaporation and the clouds, it was a mist that came from fountains of the deep. It had never rained in the way we think of rain before Noah. There used to be a lot of water deep under the earth that was carried up in passages called fountains of the deep. I suspect that the Yucatan crater may be a leftover remnant of one such fountain of the deep. There may be another one over somewhere near the North Sea if I recall, etc. You see, iridium is said by science to come from space, or deep in the earth. No? That was where the flood waters came from also. Sure enough, we have a worldwide layer replete with iridium! But I digress, that is a separate thread.
No evidence that windows of heaven do not exist? The way it works is that you postulate something to be true and then try to find ways to show that you are correct. The default position is that there are no "windows of heaven" until someone can show they do exist. You're doing it backwards.That is what you have been doing here if you notice. Making up stories with no evidence that there were no windows of heaven opened, no God, etc etc etc. Stick to what you know.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #556The act of childbirth has many risks, and there have been deaths as a result. If you're here to just deny fact I can't help you.
I never said she was at greater risk, so that's on you.How is a woman who was raped risking her life any more than any other woman on earth giving birth??
Do you deny that some women have died while giving birth?Snuffing a little person in the womb is or should not be a medical decision. A medical decision should involve saving life. Murder is not a medical decision.
If not, who's life do YOU decide to save when the mother's life is at risk?
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #557[Replying to DrNoGods in post #555]
Awwww. C'mon DrNoGods. If you were an omnipotent deity and wanted to rid the earth of a few pesky humans, wouldn't you just open up a wormhole to transport water across the universe and release the fountains of the deep to drown everyone? Of course a few humans will get to escape this devastation, but they have to build their own structurally sound giant wooden boat using the best technology of the day. Sounds like the perfect plan to me. God sure works in mysterious ways. LOL.
Awwww. C'mon DrNoGods. If you were an omnipotent deity and wanted to rid the earth of a few pesky humans, wouldn't you just open up a wormhole to transport water across the universe and release the fountains of the deep to drown everyone? Of course a few humans will get to escape this devastation, but they have to build their own structurally sound giant wooden boat using the best technology of the day. Sounds like the perfect plan to me. God sure works in mysterious ways. LOL.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #558Creation and the flood involve God. For the record.
All of this is above the pay grade of science.Again, I did not mention gods but rather heaven and angels.
It is not empirical evidence that you offer that the decision was the lions.In any case, if a lion was headed for you for lunch and decided to dart away and go after a gazelle instead, you can't say that god saved you from the lion any more than that the lion decided it would rather dine on gazelle for some reason, without any input from a god. You being alive is not empirical evidence that any god was involved in the lion's decision.
The bible says there was water above and below that firmament. Your inability to know what is beyond (or what was beyond- since this was thousands of years ago) the observable universe is not my problem.What? So you think there is some source of water beyond the observable universe, and it can get to Earth via wormhole-like passages? You might try your luck at wild science fiction.
Since you have no capacity to offer evidence who really cares what your guess of preference is?I didn't miss it ... just disregarded it as a joke, or nonsense. More purely made up science fiction.
Well, let's break this down. If the earth was created and then waters above space were separated from waters on earth below, that seems to mean that the waters were above the firmament. (space) Later the stars were made and put in this space (firmament), So how would that not have meant water was above where the stars are??So now you're claiming that there is some distance from Earth where stars cease to exist and there is water beyond this point? This is getting crazier by the minute.
It is so advanced, actually, that even modern so called science folks like you struggle to grasp the complexity and magnitude of the portals that opened. Man's science is like caveman science to God! He calls the wisdom of this world 'foolishness'.
Bingo. That is my deduction of what the bible is talking about. As a confirmation such things are possible, we have one instance where a man is praying with his eyes closed. An angel from the throne of God (God is also beyond the heavens where the stars are) came to Daniel's room and spoke to him just as he opened his eyes. The distance of the universe was traveled in moments (or less). Time and space are no limit to God or His angels.Sure ... magic portals in space that transport water. Got it.
It is no secret. The firmament is where God made the stars.It doesn't matter what word you use, the concept is demonstrably false. There is no "firmament" ... what do you think that actually is?
No, we do not live that long now. One reason we can also deduce that nature on earth changed! There are many things that go on now that have no relation to what went on, such as possibly...radioactivity.Wow ... not sure what to say about such a ridiculous scenario. More wild guessing obviously. And Noah wasn't a real person ... humans don't live to 950 years (now, or ever).
No evidence that windows of heaven do not exist?
No. No evidence that they did not exist long long ago.
Obviously there are not windows of heaven open now. That has zero relation to when they were opened!The way it works is that you postulate something to be true and then try to find ways to show that you are correct. The default position is that there are no "windows of heaven" until someone can show they do exist. You're doing it backwards.
Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #559They also will make it possible for the Savior to come one day.brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:31 pm [Replying to DrNoGods in post #555]
Awwww. C'mon DrNoGods. If you were an omnipotent deity and wanted to rid the earth of a few pesky humans, wouldn't you just open up a wormhole to transport water across the universe and release the fountains of the deep to drown everyone? Of course a few humans will get to escape this devastation, but they have to build their own structurally sound giant wooden boat using the best technology of the day. Sounds like the perfect plan to me. God sure works in mysterious ways. LOL.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #560I thought that he was meant to be traveling down on clouds with trumpets blaring. Never mind. One fiction is as good as another.dad1 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:42 pmThey also will make it possible for the Savior to come one day.brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:31 pm [Replying to DrNoGods in post #555]
Awwww. C'mon DrNoGods. If you were an omnipotent deity and wanted to rid the earth of a few pesky humans, wouldn't you just open up a wormhole to transport water across the universe and release the fountains of the deep to drown everyone? Of course a few humans will get to escape this devastation, but they have to build their own structurally sound giant wooden boat using the best technology of the day. Sounds like the perfect plan to me. God sure works in mysterious ways. LOL.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.