Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[Shem Yoshi]

Alright ill watch your movie, and think about it. But i want you to define suffering, because suffering can be a lot of things. Maybe suffering is hurting? But what is pain? Is it being mauled to death? Could you also say pain is not feeling pleasure? Some people find it painful to not feel pleasure, drug addicts and mental addiction for example. Maybe it is painful not to have an organism every moment of the day? Is that suffering? ;p

I have no beef here As I stated prior, there's "good suffering" and "bad suffering". It really does not matter. The point being....

I trust we could agree there exists animal 'bad suffering'? But regardless, why do animals have to "suffer", good or bad at all? If they are ultimately just going to die, and not go to heaven, what's the point? This is why the argument is about the animals, and not humans. Apples and oranges.

Why do animals have to feel pleasure? Why would God do that? (i amuse this question because you amuse suffering can be good).

If we will amuse that suffering is good, why does this pose a problem at all?

[POI]

Why do animals have to feel pleasure? Why would God do that? (i amuse this question because you amuse suffering can be good).

If we will amuse that suffering is good, why does this pose a problem at all?

Your argument really only more-so substantiates a godless environment. As the video states... What we see, in the wild, is what you might expect to see, if no god is present at all. Humans included, quite frankly.

The Christian god is the god of love, right? If you believe god created animals, what would be the point of them experiencing 'suffering', only to die and that's it?

[Shem Yoshi]

Why do animals have to feel pleasure? Why would God do that? (i amuse this question because you amuse suffering can be good).

If we will amuse that suffering is good, why does this pose a problem at all?

Your argument really only more-so substantiates a godless environment. As the video states... What we see, in the wild, is what you might expect to see, if no god is present at all. Humans included, quite frankly.

The Christian god is the god of love, right? If you believe god created animals, what would be the point of them experiencing 'suffering', only to die and that's it?

Because suffering is good.

To be honest there can be a lot of thought, and probably a variety of answers, but:

1) if God is loving and good
2) if suffering is good
then
3) God is loving and good to allow suffering

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #10]

I watched the video. Not bad. I do not see this as Christianities biggest problem, though. No doubt, humans suffering from natural causes like tornados is a much harder problem.

There needs to be an ecosystem and predators play a role in that. All good stuff from Craig. However, I have my own reason for my animals suffer, or at least appear to suffer. That is the first part that needs to be addressed.

Craig is right here. Animals do not suffer the same way humans do because they do not have an internal awareness like we do. I would take this even farther, though. How do we know for sure that other humans are actually suffering? We can only go by their actions and words. We cannot know what it is like to be them. We don't have a supernatural power to feel what they are feeling. The same is true for animals. How do we know they are suffering? They cannot express it in words, so we only have their reactions to go by.

They reactions show me that they have a much higher pain threshold than we humans do. Brand a cow with a hot piece of metal and it goes mooo, then goes about its day. Brand a human with hot metal and he screams, then continues to act in pain for hours to come. He might even cry.

I must wonder, though, do animals suffer at all? They act like they are suffering, but I cannot know they are actually suffering because I am not having their experience. It could be that they only act as if suffering, but why?

As theists, we have to accept divine hiddenness. I am not going to get into why God chooses to mostly hide right now, but we accept he has good reasons. It is the divine plan that humans suffer. You can read why here - https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... -the-world

Thus we have divine hiddenness and humans must suffer. If we happened to live in such a word where humans suffered yet animals did not, we would know something wasn't right. Why are we the only animals to suffer? We would start to think that the world is clearly designed for us. If God wishes to remain mostly hidden, and humans must suffer, then animals must at least appear to suffer, otherwise, God cannot remain mostly hidden.

If animals actually suffer, there could be some greater good that comes from it, such as animals learn via their limited suffering how to be the best they can be so they are ready for a heavenly life as animals.

[POI]

Why do animals have to feel pleasure? Why would God do that? (i amuse this question because you amuse suffering can be good).

If we will amuse that suffering is good, why does this pose a problem at all?

Your argument really only more-so substantiates a godless environment. As the video states... What we see, in the wild, is what you might expect to see, if no god is present at all. Humans included, quite frankly.

The Christian god is the god of love, right? If you believe god created animals, what would be the point of them experiencing 'suffering', only to die and that's it?

Because suffering is good.

To be honest there can be a lot of thought, and probably a variety of answers, but:

1) if God is loving and good
2) if suffering is good
then
3) God is loving and good to allow suffering

Okay, why does god allow human suffering? Simply saying "suffering is good", is too vague. Why is human suffering good? And once you apply those reason(s), as to why human suffering is good, then just compare it to why animal suffering is good?

[JoeyKnothead]

...
...Animals do not suffer the same way humans do because they do not have an internal awareness like we do.

The mirror test has some critters with self (internal?) awareness.

Their reactions show me that they have a much higher pain threshold than we humans do. Brand a cow with a hot piece of metal and it goes mooo, then goes about its day. Brand a human with hot metal and he screams, then continues to act in pain for hours to come. He might even cry.
...

Several factors come into play here, like the thick skin, and the nerve density. Brand you a cat and see what a fit he'll pitch.

If my examples here don't refute your argument as a whole, they sure poke a -ahem- hole in it.

[Shem Yoshi]

Why do animals have to feel pleasure? Why would God do that? (i amuse this question because you amuse suffering can be good).

If we will amuse that suffering is good, why does this pose a problem at all?

Your argument really only more-so substantiates a godless environment. As the video states... What we see, in the wild, is what you might expect to see, if no god is present at all. Humans included, quite frankly.

The Christian god is the god of love, right? If you believe god created animals, what would be the point of them experiencing 'suffering', only to die and that's it?

Because suffering is good.

To be honest there can be a lot of thought, and probably a variety of answers, but:

1) if God is loving and good
2) if suffering is good
then
3) God is loving and good to allow suffering

Okay, why does god allow human suffering? Simply saying "suffering is good", is too vague. Why is human suffering good? And once you apply those reason(s), as to why human suffering is good, then just compare it to why animal suffering is good?

Well I think suffering is good because it makes us who we are, and we are stronger for it. But even if we couldn't give a explanation for why suffering is good, there would have to be an explanation for why suffering is evil to even begin to establish that a good God wouldnt allow it. I fail to see how it is we connect suffering with evil. Even you yourself used "good suffering" and "bad suffering"... Therefor suffering itself is not dependent on whether it is "good" or "bad", but other things would have to be considered that you would call it good or bad. It seems to me that suffering itself is a bit irrelevant to the question.

Though I myself believe suffering is good, and even in nature like the theory of evolution says survival of the fittest. A case could be made that suffering is good for natural processes.

[brunumb]

If animals actually suffer, there could be some greater good that comes from it, such as animals learn via their limited suffering how to be the best they can be so they are ready for a heavenly life as animals.

Thank you for the lesson. I shall now endeavor to kick any dog I see while on my daily walks for their greater good.

[POI]

Why do animals have to feel pleasure? Why would God do that? (i amuse this question because you amuse suffering can be good).

If we will amuse that suffering is good, why does this pose a problem at all?

Your argument really only more-so substantiates a godless environment. As the video states... What we see, in the wild, is what you might expect to see, if no god is present at all. Humans included, quite frankly.

The Christian god is the god of love, right? If you believe god created animals, what would be the point of them experiencing 'suffering', only to die and that's it?

Because suffering is good.

To be honest there can be a lot of thought, and probably a variety of answers, but:

1) if God is loving and good
2) if suffering is good
then
3) God is loving and good to allow suffering

Okay, why does god allow human suffering? Simply saying "suffering is good", is too vague. Why is human suffering good? And once you apply those reason(s), as to why human suffering is good, then just compare it to why animal suffering is good?

Well I think suffering is good because it makes us who we are, and we are stronger for it. But even if we couldn't give a explanation for why suffering is good, there would have to be an explanation for why suffering is evil to establish that a good God wouldnt allow it. I fail to see how it is we connect suffering with evil. Even you yourself used "good suffering" and "bad suffering"... Therefor suffering itself is not dependent on whether it is "good" or "bad", but other things would have to be considered that you would call it good or bad. It seems to me that suffering itself is a bit irrelevant to the question.

Though I myself believe suffering is good, and even nature in the idea of evolution says survival of the fittest. You make a case that suffering is good under natural process.

Your justification does not work for the animal kingdom. It would not matter whether or not an animal became stronger, unless you wish to merely argue longer survival. This would have nothing to do with the topic of Christianity however, as it pertains to the topic of theodicy. What you appear to be arguing, is that all 'suffering' is justified. Okay. Why is animal suffering 'justified' however? Survival means nothing here. They are still going to die, and that's it. This is (apples and oranges), as it is compared to humans apparently.

[brunumb]

Though I myself believe suffering is good, and even in nature like the theory of evolution says survival of the fittest. A case could be made that suffering is good for natural processes.

Evolution is not about survival of the fittest individuals. You are confusing physical/mental fitness with some inherited advantage that allows one to survive and reproduce a little better in a particular environment. A different meaning of fitness. That said I would like to hear your case that suffering is good for natural processes.