Is the Earth really ruled by Satan?

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #2636]

YHVH informs me that YHVH is the most high over all the Earth and always has been.

It would appear that if Satan works for YHVH as a means of sorting out those who understand YHVH is the most high over all the Earth from those who believe otherwise, then this does not change the fact that YHVH is the most high over all the Earth.

Satan is not working FOR Jehovah. He is working against Him. He challenged Jehovah that he could prove that mankind could live without Him and was given the opportunity by Jehovah. Jehovah is the Most High but has allowed Satan to take over rulership of the world for a set amount of time. Why else do you think the world is in such a mess? You think Jehovah rules this way? Satan is fast losing his challenge.

Q: Is this belief a logical and productive way in which to understand our world and our place in it?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #8]
My immediate concern with your theology is that there is no explanation as to how spirit beings are supposed to take care of a physical object, such as planet earth.

Mankind cannot understand the spiritual world.

Also of note, Genesis One speaks about the beginning formation of the planet, and does not mention any state of the universe prior to that, which you are arguing for.

It speaks to the creation of the heavens and the earth.

In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

Replying to myth-one.com in post #8[/url]]The Temptation of Christ, stories are questionable . . .

As is everything.

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #8]

I believe the earth was created for some purpose -- which probably included some form(s) of life.

Beliefs still require logical explanations. Saying that "the earth was created for some purpose" isn't helpful. What possible purpose could such a situation - one living dust-speck of a planet among a host of Galaxies - serve?

After creating mankind, YHVH commanded them to replenish and subdue the earth.

Yet this mythology you believe in has it that Satan ruled the Earth before the creation of humans.
Please explain why YHVH would place humans upon a planet ruled by apparently rebellious spirit-beings.

"Abandoned to its own fate" was my own poor choice of words.

Indeed. The mythology appears to be a poor choice too.

Lucifer and some of the angels under his control left the earth and warred in heaven:

My assumption is that they "abandoned" whatever functions they were assigned to perform on the earth during their war in heaven...
Perhaps that event is the cause of the earth's status in Genesis 1:2

So this mythology you believe in is more about your personal assumption and is very much based in 'perhaps' rather than having any certainly of purpose.

Do you think it is acceptable to be creating such mythology and expressing it as something which is actually truth?

The implication is that the earth requires some kind of upkeep or monitoring.

The implication is that this was seen as to being GOOD as far as YHVH was concerned. It was created that way from the go-get, as per Genesis One, and humans were created to be physical beings, able to find ways in which to take care of its physical nature.

There certainly are other things in the universe which could harm the earth.

And therein, YHVH created things that way, and - whether we choose to agree or not - YHVH proclaimed those things as GOOD - even that harm could come to them.

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #11]

My immediate concern with your theology is that there is no explanation as to how spirit beings are supposed to take care of a physical object, such as planet earth.

Mankind cannot understand the spiritual world.

According to your questionable mythology, which you admit are short on answers.

Also of note, Genesis One speaks about the beginning formation of the planet, and does not mention any state of the universe prior to that, which you are arguing for.

It speaks to the creation of the heavens and the earth.

Clearly Genesis One treats "the heavens" as "Everything else in the universe which is not the Earth" - meaning "the rest of the universe".

The Temptation of Christ, stories are questionable as being physical events -

As is everything.

I trust you will agree that your mythology is questionable and - as I have shown - inadequate as a device in answering the OP Question.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

If one believed in fantasies, perhaps.

Then, why is the fantasy a logical and productive way in which to understand our world and our place in it?

Because in fantasies anything is possible. They don't have to make sense in order to understand our world and our place in it. Many people simply accept talking snakes, asses, and eagles, as well as someone turning into a pillar of salt and living in the stomach of a fish for three days.

But concerning Satan: I would think that if Satan was working against Jehovah, Jehovah could permanently take him out in the first round. No?

Given that the belief is otherwise, that is odd, I agree.

And I'm curious as to where the Bible says god allowed Satan to take over rulership of the world for a set amount of time. Got a chapter and verse?

Nope.

What I think about it is similar to this;

Diogenes: The concept (and character) of 'Satan' is interesting and one that puzzles theologians. The OP assumes a strict monotheism, a lone creative God in the void of the universe. How would an anti-god, a force of evil intrude in a universe with an omnipotent God?

Well, for one thing god does create evil,

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

so quite evidently, to me anyway, god could well have purposely created such an anti-god. A force of evil.

When I wrote the 1st post I pictured how I would react, how I would think if I was alone in the universe, alone for all eternity. That's where the 'Terror' of the title comes in. I think a lone God would almost welcome an adversary... anything but the terror of total and absolute solitude forever.

In other words god had a real need. However, I believe this would go against his character as the Christians present it: A perfect being.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect beings having no needs, they would be complete as is: perfect.

Was God ever alone in the universe? Was Satan coexistent from the beginning? Were the angels?
Or did God create Satan? Did God create evil? If 'he' did, why? Does man have free will without Satan? Why would God knowingly introduce evil to the world, knowing the misery and agony of disease and cruelty? Or is God not God at all, but just one powerful force among many?
_______________________________________________________________________

All good questions.

.

[William]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #9]

FTL;
[00:00]
1: Satan is referred to in the Jewish bible - 3 or 4 times
2: The Christian bible refers to Satan over 150 times.
3: The idea of Satan is much more of a focus of the Christian than the Jewish bible.
4: If one wishes to understand any subject in the Jewish Bible, find the first place that it appears.
5: The first time the word Satan appears in the Jewish Scriptures is Numbers 22:22

And YHVH's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of YHVH stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

[04:17]

[William]

[Replying to Miles in post #14]

If one believed in fantasies, perhaps.

Then, why is the fantasy a logical and productive way in which to understand our world and our place in it?

Because in fantasies anything is possible. They don't have to make sense in order to understand our world and our place in it. Many people simply accept talking snakes, asses, and eagles, as well as someone turning into a pillar of salt and living in the stomach of a fish for three days.

This still does not explain how such fantasies are logical and productive. If these "don't have to make sense" then this rules out the logical.

Well, for one thing god does create evil,

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

so quite evidently, to me anyway, god could well have purposely created such an anti-god. A force of evil.

Your reasoning here appears to be off the mark. Why would such a god require some other being to act as an anti-god?
The reasoning implies that a god who creates evil cannot be a god or - if a god can create evil, then what is an "anti-god" and why create it?

As to the script, I take that to mean that, whatever we label as being 'good' or 'evil' it all comes from the one source. This does not mean that what we label as good or evil, is necessarily actually good or evil, even that we might believe that light is 'good' and therefore dark is 'evil' and in context, the word 'evil' appears to be used as opposite of 'peace' so by YHVH saying that YHVH does 'all these things' this is not necessarily some confession on YHVHs part, to actually being evil.

Diogenes: When I wrote the 1st post I pictured how I would react, how I would think if I was alone in the universe, alone for all eternity. That's where the 'Terror' of the title comes in. I think a lone God would almost welcome an adversary... anything but the terror of total and absolute solitude forever.

In other words god had a real need. However, I believe this would go against his character as the Christians present it: A perfect being.

It is shown clearly enough that Christians have a dissimilar concept of YHVH than Jews, and for that matter, most likely both cultures have different ideas as to what a 'perfect god' constitutes.

I understand Diogenes concern for a lone consciousness, but upon reflection have to concede that a lone god would not create an adversary as first choice of companions, when friendlies would be the more logical choice for any lonely entity to make.
To create an adversary - psychologically - speaks of self doubt, and some need to feel persecuted, but lone entities can develop more healthier company than adversaries...

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect beings having no needs, they would be complete as is: perfect.

This would rule out all gods as "perfect" beings, since other beings exist and would not exist otherwise or their existence would have to be explained as to why a perfect being would create anything else.

Therefore, it is more likely that the word "perfect" is not being used in the context you understand it to mean. Can we point to any physical object or non-physical idea/concept and say that it is 'perfect' [having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics;]

I think we could if we added to that, "as good as it is possible to be".

In which case, we could agree that the script means along the lines of "Be ye therefore as good as it is possible for you to be, even as your Father which is in heaven is as good as it is possible for Him to be." rather than trying to be as good as YHVH can be, while yet a human being, which would be impossible to achieve and render the advice given as irrational/poorly thought out. to say the least.

[PolytheistWitch]

[Replying to William in post #6]

I've never read anything that indicates that Satan doesn't do anything but work for the god of Abraham. There's no hell in the Old Testament. And basically Satan can only do what the god of Abraham tells him.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to William in post #6]

I've never read anything that indicates that Satan doesn't do anything but work for the god of Abraham. There's no hell in the Old Testament. And basically Satan can only do what the god of Abraham tells him.

So Satan has no choice but to obey God?

The Satan robot?

[William]

[Replying to William in post #6]

I've never read anything that indicates that Satan doesn't do anything but work for the god of Abraham. There's no hell in the Old Testament. And basically Satan can only do what the god of Abraham tells him.

So Satan has no choice but to obey YHVH?

The Satan robot?

Not necessarily "Robot". The way PolytheistWitch words it, it would appear that Satan is unable to do anything other than what YHVH instructs, but Satan appears to understand/reason and thus might be more like an AI than simply a mindless robot and simply sees logic in YHVHs thinking and supports that in the role YHVH employs him in.

[Miles]

[Replying to William in post #6]

I've never read anything that indicates that Satan doesn't do anything but work for the god of Abraham. There's no hell in the Old Testament. And basically Satan can only do what the god of Abraham tells him.

Well, there is "Hell" in the Old Testament, as well as its equivalent name "Sheol," such as mentioned in Proverbs 15:24.

KJ21
The path of life is upward for the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
ASV
To the wise the way of life goeth upward, That he may depart from Sheol beneath.
NLV
The path of life leads up for the wise, so he may keep away from hell below.
NRSVA
For the wise the path of life leads upwards, in order to avoid Sheol below.
EHV
The path of life leads upward for a person with insight, so that he may turn away from hell below.
ESV
The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.
BRG
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
AMPC
The path of the wise leads upward to life, that he may avoid [the gloom] in the depths of Sheol (Hades, the place of the dead).
GW
The path of life for a wise person leads upward in order to turn him away from hell below.
CSB
For the prudent the path of life leads upward, so that he may avoid going down to Sheol.
AKJV
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
LEB
The path of life leads upward for him who has insight, in order to turn away from Sheol below.
MSG
Life ascends to the heights for the thoughtful— it’s a clean about-face from descent into hell.
MEV
The way of life leads above for the wise, that he may depart from Sheol below.
etc.
etc.

As well as in Psalm 139:8

KJ21
If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there.
ASV
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.
GW
If I go up to heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in hell, you are there.
HCSB
If I go up to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.
NOG
If I go up to heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in hell, you are there.
NABRE
If I ascend to the heavens, you are there; if I lie down in Sheol, there you are.
KJV
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
LEB
If I ascend to heaven, there you are, and if I make my bed in Sheol, look! There you are.
NOG
If I go up to heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in hell, you are there.
NASB
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
etc.
etc.

And Isaiah 14:9

KJ21
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
ASV
Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
GNV
Hell beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming, raising up the dead for thee, even all the princes of the earth, and hath raised from their thrones all the Kings of the nations.
GW
Sheol below wakes up to meet you when you come. It wakes up the ghosts of the dead, all who were leaders on earth. It raises all who were kings of the nations from their thrones.
MEV
Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
NOG
Sheol below wakes up to meet you when you come. It wakes up the ghosts of the dead, all who were leaders on earth. It raises all who were kings of the nations from their thrones.
etc.
etc.
etc

I think you get the idea, hell/sheol is indeed in the Old Testament

.