Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[Shem Yoshi]

What if through suffering was a way God could love something?

Perhaps you should reevaluate your god concept, rather than cloth it as something somewhat sadistic/psychopathic?

No seriously. Scripture even called them blessed who weep (Luke 6) and who morn (Matt 5) "for they shall be comforted". Jesus said the first shall be last and the last first. He said hate your life take up your cross deny your self and follow me (Luke 12). He said woe to them that laugh now (Luke 6). Paul said take joy in your suffering (Romans 8), Jesus said stand up straight and keep your head up in the times of tribulation (Matt 18?).

I think this debate fundamentally misunderstands the character of God.

[Shem Yoshi]

Ya you guys remember Babmi? When his mom got shot? Ever think about that?

[William]

What if through suffering was a way God could love something?

Perhaps you should reevaluate your god concept, rather than cloth it as something somewhat sadistic/psychopathic?

No seriously. Scripture even called them blessed who weep (Luke 6) and who morn (Matt 5) "for they shall be comforted". Jesus said the first shall be last and the last first. He said hate your life take up your cross deny your self and follow me (Luke 12). He said woe to them that laugh now (Luke 6). Paul said take joy in your suffering (Romans 8), Jesus said stand up straight and keep your head up in the times of tribulation (Matt 18?).

I think this debate fundamentally misunderstands the character of God.

The thing being, the way you worded it infers to the reader that the god cannot love without folk suffering....

[Shem Yoshi]

Or what about the lion king? Simba... Who doesnt love that guy? Ya puts some perspective on this whole 'animals are bad when they suffer' thing.

Ya... Im sorry if you feel like loving animals who suffer is a bad thing... Maybe its evil to suggest you cannt love a suffering animal...

[POI]

What if through suffering was a way God could love something?

Perhaps you should reevaluate your god concept, rather than cloth it as something somewhat sadistic/psychopathic?

No seriously. Scripture even called them blessed who weep (Luke 6) and who morn (Matt 5) "for they shall be comforted". Jesus said the first shall be last and the last first. He said hate your life take up your cross deny your self and follow me (Luke 12). He said woe to them that laugh now (Luke 6). Paul said take joy in your suffering (Romans 8), Jesus said stand up straight and keep your head up in the times of tribulation (Matt 18?).

I think this debate fundamentally misunderstands the character of God.

The misunderstanding is with you. This topic is NOT about "the problem of human evil.". It is about "the problem of animal evil." Apples and oranges. Theists argue many angles about why humans suffer. Your argument above further demonstrates the 'justification' for 'the problem of human evil.'.

But, we are speaking about animals. Why would a loving God allow for "natural" and/or "moral evil" to be inflicted/subjected upon them? You have stated 'it makes them stronger'. Well, stronger for what? Just to live a little longer? To only still later die and vanish, like a fart in the wind? As stated prior, unless you wish to argue that animals also reside in heaven, after their natural deaths, not really sure why animals are subjected to "suffering'?

And it seems you likely think animals do suffer. So I'm not going to go down that road again, since you really had no rebuttal there.

[POI]

Im sorry if you feel like loving animals who suffer is a bad thing... Maybe its evil to suggest you cannt love a suffering animal...

This isn't my argument at all.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #332]

I have already responded to everything. If you feel something is not responded to, you can make a new post and I will address anything that needs to be addressed.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to brunumb in post #319]

With humans I can also talk to them.

Are the humans you can't talk to not suffering?

If they are not capable of communication in anyway, then I can only go by their actions. Do you have some other way of measuring how much a human is suffering? Perhaps, some brain scanning technology will show us for sure they are suffering?

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #332]

I have already responded to everything. If you feel something is not responded to, you can make a new post and I will address anything that needs to be addressed.

No, you did not response to post 317. But that's okay. And no, making a new thread about the same topic would be silly. Allow me to try and push this forward a bit....

I'm going to steelman the $h1+ out of your argument in bold blue, from post 301 and beyond.... You are welcome.....

Animals do not actually suffer. They appear to, via human 'observation', but we are flat out wrong. Due to the topic of divine hiddenness, god's plan is to create the illusion of animal suffering, to stay in line with divine hiddenness. If we humans "observed" that animals did not suffer, we would get too suspicious.

Feel free to intervene, and correct any strawman(s) here before we proceed further.

[POI]

[Replying to brunumb in post #319]

With humans I can also talk to them.

Are the humans you can't talk to not suffering?

If they are not capable of communication in anyway, then I can only go by their actions. Do you have some other way of measuring how much a human is suffering? Perhaps, some brain scanning technology will show us for sure they are suffering?

As I expressed, unanswered, in post 317.

Yes, we must remain hyper-skeptical. We must not rely upon "observation", unless it deals with "observations" about God.