Who met Paul on Damascus Road?

[tutle64]

Let's preface this debate with a bit of background. Paul was first introduced in the biblical drama as Saul in Acts 7:58. He not only dragged these members of The Way off to prison, but voted to have them killed (Acts 26:10). Paul then apparently converted and became an apostle. The most notable point that legitimized him was the Damascus Road conversion in Acts 9, 22, and 26. In this event, Paul was in the middle of persecuting The Way when suddenly he was met by a bright light. This light called itself Jesus, told Paul to do some things, then told him to get up. In two of the three stories, Paul is blinded. Some contradictions include who the light shined around, what Paul was blinded by, whether the men with him heard a voice, whether they saw a light, and whether they fell to the ground with Paul. My question for you is, who met Paul on Damascus Road? I am convinced that he could not have met Jesus because Acts 1:11, Rev 1:7, and Mat 24:30 all lead to the conclusion that Jesus would not come back until judgment day, coming on the clouds. I believe that Paul met Satan, disguised as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), on Damascus Road. So again, who met Paul on Damascus Road?

[Shem Yoshi]

Personally I believe it probably is not reasonable for you to remain doubtful. This would include the external and internal evidences that weight on a person.

I agree with Simon Greenleaf,

"Of the Divine character of the Bible, I think, no man who deals honestly with his own mind and heart can entertain a reasonable doubt, For myself, I must say, that having for many years made the evidences of Christianity the subject of close study, the result has been a firm and increasing conviction of the authenticity and plenary inspiration of the Bible. It is indeed the Word of God."

And that could be true for the supernatural in general. I personally think that denial of unexplained phenomenon is rooted in biases. It is perfectly natural to experience and believe in the unexplained, or things outside scientific materialism.

In that case anything goes, nothing can prove you wrong and nothing can prove you right.

If we take the supernatural as possible or true it does allow non physical things or metaphysical things or unexplainable phenomenon possible, but it certainly does not mean there isn't a foundation of truth... In fact many people argue all the time that truth is only made possible by God. For example ideas of justice, righteousness, causality, or even induction and the order in nature need to lay on a foundation of God in order that we can make sense of them. Truth itself might need rest on God to even be comprehendible. Really truth brakes down to absurdity without it's foundation. And skepticism certainly doesn't really give us any answers in these subjects.

There would also be a foundation in supernatural truth as well... we would see this illustrated in things like God verse Satan, or the Holy Spirit verse the Spirit of the Antichrist, where God (Proverbs 1:7) and the Holy Spirit is the foundation of truth (1 John 4:1-6) and Satan being "the Father of lies" (John 8:44) including the spirit of the anti-Christ (1 John 2:22 )

[1213]

...
How would Paul recognize the "voice of Jesus"? It wasn't the "son of man" that Paul saw...

Where does Paul say he saw a person? By what I know, he said only that he saw a bright light. And how would he recognize the voice, probably he just believed what the voice said, because of the miraculous event and the content and the situation.

Well Acts is not consistent with what it says happened. One version said everyone was blinded and another said everyone was made deaf. What Paul described he saw was a "bright light", such as an angel of light, ...

I didn't find Paul speaking of "angel of light" in the Bible. If it is not just your imagination, please show the scripture that has the word "angel of light".

[1213]

(1) Jesus had to die on the cross so that man's sin could be forgiven, true?

(2) this could not have happened if Jesus had not been arrested and the Jews had not forced Pilate (who was - according to the gospels - inclined to let Jesus go free) to execute him, correct?

(3) Satan entering into Judas, and therefore in cahoots with the Jews who were were working to bring about Jesus' death, was therefore working to make God's plan happen, yes?No?

Not for the first time, Satan appears to be doing God's dirty work for Him.

Jesus forgave sins before his death and gave the same right to his disciples also without death. Actually that Jesus forgave sins was reason why people wanted to murder him. So, I think in Biblical point of view death was not necessary for to forgive.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, “Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you;’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk?’ But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (he said to the paralyzed man), “I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house.” Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever’s sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever’s sins you retain, they have been retained.”
John 20:23

And Biblical reason why Jesus was allowed to die is:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

I fail to see the relevance to my post or the questions posed (1). It looks like total evasion of the questions posed and instead a not unfamiliar preachfest hardly related to the point. Sorry. You can believe and post whatever you wish, but I feel obliged to say that such a post adds up to precisely Zilch.
...

Sorry, if my answer was not clear enough. The point was to answer to this:
"Jesus had to die on the cross so that man's sin could be forgiven, true?"

The answer is no. And the reason was in the previous post.

[2ndpillar2]

...
How would Paul recognize the "voice of Jesus"? It wasn't the "son of man" that Paul saw...

Where does Paul say he saw a person? By what I know, he said only that he saw a bright light. And how would he recognize the voice, probably he just believed what the voice said, because of the miraculous event and the content and the situation.

Well Acts is not consistent with what it says happened. One version said everyone was blinded and another said everyone was made deaf. What Paul described he saw was a "bright light", such as an angel of light, ...

I didn't find Paul speaking of "angel of light" in the Bible. If it is not just your imagination, please show the scripture that has the word "angel of light".

Get real. "Angel of light" was not in quotations. Bright light was the quotation, which was expanded by me by saying "such as an angel of light", because "bright lights" don't speak, and "angels of light" are a well-known topic of Paul's expertise. Actually, "Satan" is a topic of Paul regarding his gift from "a messenger of Satan", which was a thorn in his side. Apparently, Paul keeps close relation with "angels of light" and "Satan", or like Biden, he has someone whispering in his ear which only he can hear.

[TRANSPONDER]

(1) Jesus had to die on the cross so that man's sin could be forgiven, true?

(2) this could not have happened if Jesus had not been arrested and the Jews had not forced Pilate (who was - according to the gospels - inclined to let Jesus go free) to execute him, correct?

(3) Satan entering into Judas, and therefore in cahoots with the Jews who were were working to bring about Jesus' death, was therefore working to make God's plan happen, yes?No?

Not for the first time, Satan appears to be doing God's dirty work for Him.

Jesus forgave sins before his death and gave the same right to his disciples also without death. Actually that Jesus forgave sins was reason why people wanted to murder him. So, I think in Biblical point of view death was not necessary for to forgive.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, “Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you;’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk?’ But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (he said to the paralyzed man), “I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house.” Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever’s sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever’s sins you retain, they have been retained.”
John 20:23

And Biblical reason why Jesus was allowed to die is:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

I fail to see the relevance to my post or the questions posed (1). It looks like total evasion of the questions posed and instead a not unfamiliar preachfest hardly related to the point. Sorry. You can believe and post whatever you wish, but I feel obliged to say that such a post adds up to precisely Zilch.
...

Sorry, if my answer was not clear enough. The point was to answer to this:
"Jesus had to die on the cross so that man's sin could be forgiven, true?"

The answer is no. And the reason was in the previous post.

Ok, good. I did fail to follow your point. My bad and apologies for that. Ok. Then I revise my argument to accommodate a revised doctrine...just to check, your doctrine is that Jesus' crucifixion was not a sacrifice to make a way to escape sin - death? Because if it was, my original argument stands.

(1) Jesus had to die on the cross to, as you say, in order to rise again to be Lord of both dead the living.

(2) it was an intended divine plan that this should happen. If not, you'd have to explain why Jesus is saying this is going to happen, and blasts Simon who protests that this should not or cannot happen.

(3) thus, to make this divine plan happen, Satan has to enter into Judas, and the Sadducees have to force Pilate's hand, when he was minded to let Jesus go free.

(4) thus Judas and the Sadducees were enabling God's plan and Pilate, to some extent Simon and even Jesus himself who asks to be excused, are working against God's plan, No? Yes? I promise I will consider your response more carefully next time

[William]

Q: Who met Paul on Damascus Road?

Open AI: According to the Bible, Paul (also known as Saul) was on his way to Damascus to persecute followers of Jesus when he had a vision of Jesus. In the account of the event in the Bible, as found in the book of Acts, Paul was struck blind by a bright light and heard the voice of Jesus asking him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

Paul then asked, "Who are you, Lord?" and the voice replied, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting." This experience led to his conversion to Christianity and he became one of the most influential figures in the early Christian church.

This event is sometimes referred to as the "Damascus Road" experience or the "Damascus Road Conversion" in reference to the place it happened. According to the Bible, the one that Paul met was Jesus himself in the form of a vision, not any physical human being.

Q: So "Paul" "met" "Jesus" - but in a vision rather than in physical reality?

Open AI: Yes, that is the account given in the Bible. According to the book of Acts, Paul's "meeting" with Jesus on the Damascus Road was a vision, not a physical encounter. In the account, Paul is described as being struck blind by a bright light and hearing the voice of Jesus speaking to him, but there is no mention of a physical encounter or appearance. This event is generally understood by biblical scholars to be a powerful religious experience that Paul had, which led to his conversion to Christianity.

It's important to note that the concept of visions and spiritual encounters are central to many religions and belief systems, and some people take the story of Paul's vision as literal while others interpret it metaphorically. Regardless, the impact of this event on Paul's life and the early Christian Church is undisputed in the historical and religious scholarship. The story of Paul's Damascus Road experience is one of the most significant and enduring narratives in the Bible, and it continues to be a subject of much interest and discussion today.

Q: Satan can appear as an angel of light?

Open AI: According to Christian theology, Satan, also known as the devil, is a fallen angel who rebelled against God. Satan is often depicted as a deceiver, and one of the ways in which he deceives people is by appearing as an "angel of light." This idea is rooted in a passage from the Bible, found in 2 Corinthians 11:14, which says: "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

The passage is part of a larger argument in which the author, who most scholars believe to be Paul, is warning the Corinthians against false teachers and false prophets. He's urging them to be careful of deceivers who will try to lead them astray by appearing to be righteous and holy, but are actually promoting a false message. This statement about Satan posing as an angel of light is emphasizing that even the devil himself will use disguises, and it's important for the readers to be vigilant in examining the teachings they receive.

It is worth noting that Satan or Devil is a figure in many religions, but the beliefs and concepts of his nature and actions are different across various traditions and theology. In some monotheistic religions, such as Christianity and Judaism, the devil is often understood to be an opposing power to God, while in other religious traditions, such as Zoroastrianism and some forms of ancient gnosticism, the devil is a more ambiguous figure.

In any case, the metaphor of the "angel of light" is often understood to mean that Satan or deceivers can be cunning and disguise themselves in a way that makes it difficult to distinguish them from those who are truly holy. The warning is to be careful and discerning in matters of faith.

Q: So Paul may have met with Satan - on the Damascus Road - disguised as Jesus?

It is possible that some individuals interpret Paul's vision on the Damascus road as being an encounter with Satan, who was disguised as Jesus. However, this is not a commonly held belief among Christians. The story of Paul's conversion on the Damascus road is generally understood by scholars, both secular and religious, to be a powerful religious experience that Paul had, which led to his conversion to Christianity.

This interpretation of the story as a deception of Satan is not a mainstream interpretation of the event, and it is not a viewpoint held by most mainstream Christian denominations or scholars. Rather it is more of a fringe belief. The story of Paul's conversion is seen as a key moment in the early Christian Church. It shows how even someone who was once hostile to the message of Jesus, can be converted and become a powerful advocate for the faith.

It's important to note that the interpretation of religious texts and beliefs is a personal and subjective matter, different people have different perspectives, therefore, what may be a mainstream viewpoint for one person, may not be the same for another. It's important to approach any interpretation with an open mind and be aware of the context and other perspectives.

Q: Therefore it is possible that the fringe may be correct?

As with any interpretation of religious texts and beliefs, it is possible that those who hold minority or fringe viewpoints may be correct. However, it's important to consider their views in light of the historical and biblical scholarship, as well as the broader context and other perspectives.

It's also important to note that many of the fringe beliefs are not supported by the majority of scholars and experts in the field, and that does not necessarily mean that they are incorrect but it does make them less likely to be true. While it's true that no one can claim to have a complete or certain understanding of religious texts, it's important to consider evidence and the weight of scholarly consensus.

Furthermore, It's also important to remember that the question of whether or not the fringe viewpoint is "correct" may be less important than the impact that belief has on an individual's life. The truth of a belief is not the only factor that determines its value; a belief can also be meaningful and valuable even if it is not literally true.

[TRANSPONDER]

Q: Who met Paul on Damascus Road?

Open AI: According to the Bible, Paul (also known as Saul) was on his way to Damascus to persecute followers of Jesus when he had a vision of Jesus. In the account of the event in the Bible, as found in the book of Acts, Paul was struck blind by a bright light and heard the voice of Jesus asking him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

Paul then asked, "Who are you, Lord?" and the voice replied, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting." This experience led to his conversion to Christianity and he became one of the most influential figures in the early Christian church.

This event is sometimes referred to as the "Damascus Road" experience or the "Damascus Road Conversion" in reference to the place it happened. According to the Bible, the one that Paul met was Jesus himself in the form of a vision, not any physical human being.

Q: So "Paul" "met" "Jesus" - but in a vision rather than in physical reality?

Open AI: Yes, that is the account given in the Bible. According to the book of Acts, Paul's "meeting" with Jesus on the Damascus Road was a vision, not a physical encounter. In the account, Paul is described as being struck blind by a bright light and hearing the voice of Jesus speaking to him, but there is no mention of a physical encounter or appearance. This event is generally understood by biblical scholars to be a powerful religious experience that Paul had, which led to his conversion to Christianity.

It's important to note that the concept of visions and spiritual encounters are central to many religions and belief systems, and some people take the story of Paul's vision as literal while others interpret it metaphorically. Regardless, the impact of this event on Paul's life and the early Christian Church is undisputed in the historical and religious scholarship. The story of Paul's Damascus Road experience is one of the most significant and enduring narratives in the Bible, and it continues to be a subject of much interest and discussion today.

Well analysed. Ok,I say that it was all invented by the writer ("Luke") using Paul's skimpy bio -info.which is that he was going to Damascus, persecuting Christians, and after fleeing Damascus (reckoned 36/7 AD during the Nabatean invasion) had converted. Paul also attaches what is supposedly a belated vision of Jesus to him after Jesus had appeared to all the others and 'Luke' appears to understand this as a vision in the head rather than Jesus appearing in the resurrected bod. After all, when he comes again it's going to be a second arrival in the Last Days, not dropping in to convert an atheist here or there. So I can see a clear case for why Luke made up a plausible miracle of conversion based in a few scraps of Pauline biography. And not assiduously scribbled it while Paul or someone in the Know, dictated the event.

I know - this won't convince the believers - because in the past they have dismissed my arguments. And they are more arguable than some of the gospel Goods I have on 'Luke's fabrications in the Gospel. But for me, it makes sense enough that I do not see myself EVER being presented a persuasive case that Acts is anything other than a loosely - biographical fantasy fudged up by Luke, and not by assiduous research by him amongst eyewitnesses.

[1213]

...Then I revise my argument to accommodate a revised doctrine...just to check, your doctrine is that Jesus' crucifixion was not a sacrifice to make a way to escape sin - death? ...

By what the Bible tells, Jesus forgave sins before his death, without any sacrifice or death. Therefore his death or any sacrifice was not required for to escape sin or death.

But, Jesus can be seen as a sacrifice, because he used his life for us. It could be compared to a soldier that sacrifices his life defending his country.

[1213]

Get real. "Angel of light" was not in quotations. Bright light was the quotation, which was expanded by me by saying "such as an angel of light", because "bright lights" don't speak, and "angels of light" are a well-known topic of Paul's expertise. Actually, "Satan" is a topic of Paul regarding his gift from "a messenger of Satan", which was a thorn in his side. Apparently, Paul keeps close relation with "angels of light" and "Satan", or like Biden, he has someone whispering in his ear which only he can hear.

Ok, so the problem here seems to be that you read too much of your own to the story. Bible doesn't say that the bright light spoke. If we are literal and don't add own ideas to the story, there is no problem.

[otseng]

Damn'

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