Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[POI]

You showed I was correct. When you started to ask God to communicate with you, when you needed him to talk back, you no longer were believing. YOu were on your way to disbelief.

Patting yourself on the back for being incorrect..... Please re-read post #51. Here, I'll give you a jump start. --> I did too. Even more than I believed in Santa Claus. It was only after decades, that I started to doubt god was on the other end. (etc etc etc)

But while you believed, you also never had any experiences that you recognized as God.

So when you did believe and just never experienced God, I cannot be sure what the reason is.

The answer, which needs the least amount of "gymnastics", is (there is no god there).

For all I know, God wants you to go through this time of not believing, so that when he does reveal himself to you in such a way that you believe for real this time, you will know the difference between indoctrination and knowing God. And then perhaps, God will use you and your testimony to reach others, even if that is just to strengthen the faith in others.

This is the "gymnastics" I'm speaking about.

You can say, hey, I have been there. I have been an atheist. But I am telling you, there is a God that you can experience. Don't give up. And that I can say to you. I have been there. I have been an atheist, even antitheist. I even ruined some people's faith in God, for which I am utterly sorry. But God can reveal himself to you in a way that will convince you. He did it for me and countless others.

How do you distinguish a god experience (vs) a self experience?

[brunumb]

Perhaps it does more easily than the material.

And how will we establish the difficulty of either?

As I've submitted elsewhere,

Whenever you set out to account for the existence of the material with nothing but the material itself to draw upon, your explanation is going to be the very thing you're trying to explain. That makes the argument circular.

From there I propose that the only way out of an infinite reduction is to assume the existence of something to account for all of what's observed. That we don't know its full nature doesn't really matter. It's like the case with Dark Energy; we don't have to fully understand it to be able to conclude that it's there.

Why does God get a free pass? The material exists, that much we know. How or why, we don't know. When it comes to God we really know nothing. We invent this being to provide answers to difficult questions. But God itself needs an answer so it really doesn't account for anything.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to brunumb in post #92

When it comes to God we really know nothing. We invent this being to provide answers to difficult questions.

You contradict yourself here. After stating that we know nothing about God, you claim to know something about God.

But God itself needs an answer so it really doesn't account for anything.

The only alternative seems to be a material existence which doesn't account for itself, and it needs an answer no less.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to brunumb in post #92

When it comes to God we really know nothing. We invent this being to provide answers to difficult questions.

You contradict yourself here. After stating that we know nothing about God, you claim to know something about God.

But God itself needs an answer so it really doesn't account for anything.

The only alternative seems to be a material existence which doesn't account for itself, and it needs an answer no less.

If everything that exists has a creator, we're stuck to wonder what created God

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to brunumb in post #92

When it comes to God we really know nothing. We invent this being to provide answers to difficult questions.

You contradict yourself here. After stating that we know nothing about God, you claim to know something about God.

But God itself needs an answer so it really doesn't account for anything.

The only alternative seems to be a material existence which doesn't account for itself, and it needs an answer no less.

If everything that exists has a creator, we're stuck to wonder what created God

Does that make material existence account for itself?

[JoeyKnothead]

The only alternative seems to be a material existence which doesn't account for itself, and it needs an answer no less.

If everything that exists has a creator, we're stuck to wonder what created God

Does that make material existence account for itself?

Does it make God account for itself?

I make no claims regarding how the universe came to be - whether eternally or otherwise.

[Shem Yoshi]

The only alternative seems to be a material existence which doesn't account for itself, and it needs an answer no less.

If everything that exists has a creator, we're stuck to wonder what created God

I think this is mistaken... The reason people say material existence (the universe) needs a creator is because it began to exist at some point and therefor there ought to be a cause for its existence. People use to think nothing created or caused the universe to begin to exist, because they thought the universe was eternal, but that changed with modern science. However God is seen as eternal, or even outside of time itself, and therefor seen to be without cause....

The only reason modern philosophy says there needs to be a cause for the universe is because it came into existence, and it is not eternal. Anything that is eternal, or outside of time, including God doesnt require an answer to who created it because it has been there for eternity. It is without creation, by definition.

Nothing that is eternal can be created... it would be impossible for an eternal God to be created. Just as it would be impossible for any eternal thing to be created.

[JoeyKnothead]

The only alternative seems to be a material existence which doesn't account for itself, and it needs an answer no less.

If everything that exists has a creator, we're stuck to wonder what created God

I think this is mistaken... The reason people say material existence (the universe) needs a creator is because it began to exist at some point and therefor there ought to be a cause for its existence. People use to think nothing created or caused the universe to begin to exist, because they thought the universe was eternal, but that changed with modern science. However God is seen as eternal, or even outside of time itself, and therefor seen to be without cause....

The only reason modern philosophy says there needs to be a cause for the universe is because it came into existence, and it is not eternal. Anything that is eternal, or outside of time, including God doesnt require an answer to who created it because it has been there for eternity. It is without creation, by definition.

Nothing that is eternal can be created... it would be impossible for an eternal God to be created. Just as it would be impossible for any eternal thing to be created.

None can establish the universe as coming into existence. What we observe is an expansion of it.

So if a god can be eternal, why not the universe?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #98

So if a god can be eternal, why not the universe?

What would necessitate a universe's existence at all?

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #98

So if a god can be eternal, why not the universe?

What would necessitate a universe's existence at all?

Beats me.

What do you think?