Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[Shem Yoshi]

Certainly a profound question, 'why is there anything rather then nothing?"... I suppose there ought to be a purpose for existence, rather then no purpose at all, for our universe seems to be in order and with laws. That might suggest the universe having purpose rather then having no purpose and existing in some kind of chaotic purposeless void.

[JoeyKnothead]

Certainly a profound question, 'why is there anything rather then nothing?"... I suppose there ought to be a purpose for existence, rather then no purpose at all, for our universe seems to be in order and with laws. That might suggest the universe having purpose rather then having no purpose and existing in some kind of chaotic purposeless void.

Where "purpose" is a subjective term, speculation will rule the debate.

Is the purpose that humans can exist?

That planets can form?

That the pretty thing can call me an idiot when I do me something stupid?

Supposing the universe has a purpose is not to confirm it does. Anthropomorphic thinking is not sound evidence in this matter.

[Shem Yoshi]

Certainly a profound question, 'why is there anything rather then nothing?"... I suppose there ought to be a purpose for existence, rather then no purpose at all, for our universe seems to be in order and with laws. That might suggest the universe having purpose rather then having no purpose and existing in some kind of chaotic purposeless void.

Where "purpose" is a subjective term, speculation will rule the debate.

Is the purpose that humans can exist?

That planets can form?

That the pretty thing can call me an idiot when I do me something stupid?

Supposing the universe has a purpose is not to confirm it does. Anthropomorphic thinking is not sound evidence in this matter.

Does law suggest purpose? An orderly universe... I think everyone agrees that the universe has physical laws, and it is certainly reasonable to believe in objective law that go beyond just physical things. In fact it would be bizarre if the only objective laws in existence are for matter in motion. Laws of consciousness, laws of society, of Justice, righteousness, laws of logic, mathematics, etc... I think its not only reasonable to believe in objective laws, it would be irrational to believe objective laws dont exist... Cause and effect... I think we all see the universe having order...

Does order suggest purpose? You would think that a universe without purpose wouldnt have such order to it.

[JoeyKnothead]

Does law suggest purpose?

Not that I see.

An orderly universe...

"Orderly" is a subjective term.

I think everyone agrees that the universe has physical laws, and it is certainly reasonable to believe in objective law that go beyond just physical things.

Physical laws that go beyond the physical?

In fact it would be bizarre...

Another subjective term.

...if the only objective laws in existence are for matter in motion. Laws of consciousness, laws of society, of Justice, righteousness, laws of logic, mathematics, etc... I think its not only reasonable to believe in objective laws, it would be irrational to believe objective laws dont exist... Cause and effect... I think we all see the universe having order...

All "laws of justice" are subjective.

"Reasonable" is subjective.

"Irrational" is subjective"

How dare you try to carry on about objective.

Does order suggest purpose? You would think that a universe without purpose wouldnt have such order to it.

"Order" is subjective.

You'd think one who asserts 'objective' wouldn't hafta rely so heavily on the subjective to do it.

[Shem Yoshi]

Does law suggest purpose?

Not that I see.

An orderly universe...

"Orderly" is a subjective term.

I think everyone agrees that the universe has physical laws, and it is certainly reasonable to believe in objective law that go beyond just physical things.

Physical laws that go beyond the physical?

In fact it would be bizarre...

Another subjective term.

...if the only objective laws in existence are for matter in motion. Laws of consciousness, laws of society, of Justice, righteousness, laws of logic, mathematics, etc... I think its not only reasonable to believe in objective laws, it would be irrational to believe objective laws dont exist... Cause and effect... I think we all see the universe having order...

All "laws of justice" are subjective.

"Reasonable" is subjective.

"Irrational" is subjective"

How dare you try to carry on about objective.

Does order suggest purpose? You would think that a universe without purpose wouldnt have such order to it.

"Order" is subjective.

You'd think one who asserts 'objective' wouldn't hafta rely so heavily on the subjective to do it.

I disagree i think there are many objective laws to justice (like liberty and equality), just as there are many objective laws to logic.

The funny thing is here you are rationalizing that laws are subjective. In doing so, when you logically induce such an idea, you are claiming an objective truth, i.e. "laws are subjective" is an objective claim... It is self refuting.

[brunumb]

[Replying to brunumb in post #92

When it comes to God we really know nothing. We invent this being to provide answers to difficult questions.

You contradict yourself here. After stating that we know nothing about God, you claim to know something about God.

But God itself needs an answer so it really doesn't account for anything.

The only alternative seems to be a material existence which doesn't account for itself, and it needs an answer no less.

You didn't explain why God gets off the hook. Nor have you explained why material existence needs to be accounted for. Somehow it exists, in the same way that I suppose you suggest that God just exists. Perhaps you give God some attributes that allow it to create the material. The material may have attributes that we are not aware of that will account for its existence.

[brunumb]

Certainly a profound question, 'why is there anything rather then nothing?"... I suppose there ought to be a purpose for existence, rather then no purpose at all, for our universe seems to be in order and with laws. That might suggest the universe having purpose rather then having no purpose and existing in some kind of chaotic purposeless void.

Have a look at a few episodes of "How the Universe Works", particularly the ones dealing with black holes, neutron stars, quasars and the like, then reconsider the notions of order and purpose. Why should existence require a purpose? It just seems to give some people a security blanket to hang onto, but I see it as sheer hubris to think that this vast universe was somehow made for us.

[Shem Yoshi]

Certainly a profound question, 'why is there anything rather then nothing?"... I suppose there ought to be a purpose for existence, rather then no purpose at all, for our universe seems to be in order and with laws. That might suggest the universe having purpose rather then having no purpose and existing in some kind of chaotic purposeless void.

Have a look at a few episodes of "How the Universe Works", particularly the ones dealing with black holes, neutron stars, quasars and the like, then reconsider the notions of order and purpose. Why should existence require a purpose? It just seems to give some people a security blanket to hang onto, but I see it as sheer hubris to think that this vast universe was somehow made for us.

Is it even possible to deny purpose? All "ought's" would be illusory. Even the structure of life and of the universe would seem to be for nothing. Our society functions with the understanding of purpose. And even when you say purpose is subjective, you are claiming objectively that purpose is subjective.

[JoeyKnothead]

I disagree i think there are many objective laws to justice (like liberty and equality), just as there are many objective laws to logic.

The funny thing is here you are rationalizing that laws are subjective...

Please present just one objective law of justice, and let's watch it be shown subjective.

In doing so, when you logically induce such an idea, you are claiming an objective truth, i.e. "laws are subjective" is an objective claim... It is self refuting.

I'm challenging your claim of there being an objective law of justice.

Just one. That's all I ask.

[Shem Yoshi]

I disagree i think there are many objective laws to justice (like liberty and equality), just as there are many objective laws to logic.

The funny thing is here you are rationalizing that laws are subjective...

Please present just one objective law of justice, and let's watch it be shown subjective.

In doing so, when you logically induce such an idea, you are claiming an objective truth, i.e. "laws are subjective" is an objective claim... It is self refuting.

I'm challenging your claim of there being an objective law of justice.

Just one. That's all I ask.

Liberty