Paul's Angelic Conundrum

[Conversator]

To adequately comprehend Paul's Gospel, it is crucial to grasp his view on God's Law. Paul considered the Law to be spiritual and humanity to be hopelessly unspiritual ( e.g., Romans 7:14), and utterly incapable of remedying the dilemma through sheer resolve ( .e.g., Romans 3:10-18 and 7:18). This is basic Christianianity and hardly a matter of disputation. The focus of this deliberation is the agency through which the Law was given.

Classic Judaism unambiguously considers the Law to be transmitted to Moses directly by God himself. The Talmud ( covering rabbinic musings from 5th century BCE, to 2nd century CE) repeatedly and unequivocally gives this statement of faith such credal significance that nothing surpasses it in relevance, except only the doctrine of monotheism itself (Note:the Talmud preserves only the Pharisees' views, and is scarcely a fair background for varying Jewish sects of the time. i.e., The Talmud says nothing of the Essenes, and verly little about the Zealots, Sadducees, Christians etc)

Paul's Angelic Conundrum: Paul's convictions, received by various esoteric revelations, e.g., "whether in the body or out of the body, only God knows" ( 2nd Corinthians 12:3); departed drastically from the Pharisees' Judaism. Paul considered angels, not God, to be the agency through which the Law was given. Galatians 3:19 " Why the Law then? Sin necessitated that it be arranged ( Gk, diatasso: to arrange, prescribe) by angels". Acts, which espouses Paul's doctrines and defends his Apostolic authority echoes this : "you received the Law by Angelic arrangement, and have not kept it", 7:53. Paul describes the Law as a "tutor", (Galatians 3:24), which restrained people " in custody " (Galatians 3:23), and illustrates the angelic agency of the Law as " guardians and managers", Galatians 4:2.

Paul castigated Christians who desired to convert to Judaism, as returning to the "worthless elements to which you desire to be enslaved again", Galatians 4:9. Though the Greek word, stocheion, denotes anything of elementary principle ( be it a basic natural element or an abstract, conceptual element ), it seems clear that the angels are implied here, since the stocheion are referenced as " by nature are not gods" ( Galatians 4:8), thus eliminating a natural element as stocheion. Seems highly implausible and contextually strange that Paul would call the Law "not gods" ( so says the apologetic minority ). Or that he merely meant the elementary religious rules of pagans are " not gods " ( so says the apologetic majority ). The author of Colossians ( a pupil of Paul's epistles) seems to settle the matter when he rebukes " the worship of angels" (2:18) , as the height of absurdity since the angelic Law had been "cancelled" (2:14), and the angelic rulers "disarmed" (2:15).

Paul's angelic agency of the Law puzzled early Christians, whether these angels were supposed to be cursed for their Law (" reviling angelic majesties and rejecting their authority" , Jude 8. " Those in the flesh with corrupt desires, despise authority ... and revile angelic majesties ", 2nd Peter 2:10 ) or even cursing Christ for their Law, 1st Corinthians 12:3! The author of Titus ( another pupil of Paul's epistles ) seeks to alleviate the angelic conundrum Paul's earlier epistles created altogether : " Avoid controversies and genealogies ( angelic rank is implied here, not patriarchal pedigree. ) ... about the Law, for they are worthless, 3:9. Indeed, as worthless as the elements Paul lamented in Galatian 4:9!

These angelic genealogies are further belittled by the author of Hebrews, who insinsts that Christ has, " become greater than the angels" ( 1:4 ). To this Paul agrees, and has no reservation calling Christ an angel: " you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" ( Galatians 4:14 ), but a Son nonetheless ( Galileans 4:6). Paul's mystery ( Romans 16:25-27, Ephesians 6:19,Colossians 2:2 ), received by esoteric revelations, was mankind's need to be redeemed from the angelic agency of the Law. A Law relegated by angels necessitated an angelic redeemer from it; and thereby a lofty promotion to the angelic redeemer above the angelic genealogy of it; and certainly a curse to any angel who held a grievance with it, ( Galatians 1:8 ).

This is the Gospel of Paul. Indeed, the Gospel of the New Testament. Though traces of opposition to it can be found, i.g., the Galilean tradition verses the Jerusalem tradition. The Galilean tradition, inadvertently preserved by Mark, insisted Christ's resurrection occured only in Galilee, and by implication designated it as the environment of the kingdom of heaven. The Ebionites ( Aramaic, 'the impoverished', i.e., those who sold all their possessions and gave everything to the poor ) were considered Galilean monks who disavowed the virgin birth by the early Church Fathers and scant else is known of them. The Galilean primacy of the Ebionites unilaterally rejects not only the prominence of the Jerusalem church, but the Syrian church ( Antioch's later prominence as the birthplace of Christians, Acts 11:26 ) more broadly. Unfortunately, nothing is know of their angelical views. Whether they shared anything remotely similar to Paul's angelic conundrum is unknown, and thus they are irrelevant for the sake of this deliberation.
1) Did Paul's angelic agency of the Law redifine Christianianity or could it have somewhat resembled the historical Jesus's own views? 2) How could Paul's angelic agency of the Law have originated from what is known of 1st century Judaism? i.g., The Essenes held a similar obsession with angels and their agency of the Law, as well as a belief that a ' righteous teacher was killed by the Sadduceen priests of Jerusalem ' (1st to 2nd century BCE). 3) Was the obsession with angels and their angelic agency of the Law, the sole reason why Jesus was deified, or were there other considerations? I am not a Christian, but this fascinates me greatly.

[JehovahsWitness]

Hebrews, who insinsts that Christ has, " become greater than the angels" ( 1:4 )

Christ himself declared it so.

MATHEW 28:18

Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth

[Conversator]

Paull considered angels, not God, to be the agency through which the Law was given. ...

Paul correctly indicated that the Mosaic law was given by angels to Moses [the mediator] from God:

GALATIAN 3:19

Why, then, the Law? [..] it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator

.

Obviously God didnt send the message through ...himself. Scripture is quite clear, the only paart of the law that came directly from God was the ten commandments which he wrote himself, all the rest Moses was in communication with angelic forces which transmitted the words of God.

Angelic mediators of the Law is a foreign concept in Judaism Exodus 33:11 " the Lord spoke to Moses face to face as a man speaks to a friend..." Exodus 6:10 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 6:29 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 7:8 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 12:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 13:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 14:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 16:11 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 20:1 the Lord spoke to all Israel saying... Exodus 25:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 30:11 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 30:17 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 30:22 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 31:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 31:12 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Exodus 40:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 4:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 5:14 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 6:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 6:8 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 6:19 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 6:24 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 7:22 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 7:28 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Leviticus 8:1 the Lord spoke to Moses saying... Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc

[Conversator]

Obviously, I'm talking about Judaism and not the Jehovah witness religion. I don't see the relevance of Jehovah witness ideology here. Especially as pertians Paul's particular sect of Christianity in the 50s-60s

[JehovahsWitness]

Paull considered angels, not God, to be the agency through which the Law was given. ...

Paul correctly indicated that the Mosaic law was given by angels to Moses [the mediator] from God:

GALATIAN 3:19

Why, then, the Law? [..] it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator

.

Obviously God didnt send the message through ...himself. Scripture is quite clear, the only paart of the law that came directly from God was the ten commandments which he wrote himself, all the rest Moses was in communication with angelic forces which transmitted the words of God.

Angelic mediators of the Law is a foreign concept in Judaism

The bible has Paul refer to a human (not an angelic) mediator, namely MOSES. The angels were merely messsengers. Notice Paul speaks of angels and a mediator, not angels who are mediators.

PSALMS 104:4

He makes his angels spirits, His ministers a consuming fire

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Why was Jesus defied?

A proper answer to this would fascinate me too!

He wasnt defied, so much as opposed .

When was this done?

During the three and a half years of his public ministry.

How was it done and by whom?

By way of confronting him during his public ministry, which lead to threats on his life. His chief opponents were the religious leaders of his time.

[Conversator]

It amazes me how Christians and Muslims want the religion of the Jews, but without the Jews! They'll spare no expense explaining why the Jews are damned, whilst they, the exemplars of the Jew's God, are not. Really, those who opposed Jesus are responsible for Paul's theological mess? The age old answer: it's the Jew's fault!

[Thomas123]

Conversator:
........ Paul's fixation with angels is our best clue. ....


Simply put: Paul's obsession with angelic governance, is the background which framed Christian theology!

Thomas123: This 'all roads lead to Paul' hypothesis, is fascinating to me. Can I have some more ,please!

How did the whole Saul/Paul, thing play out?
Are there dates, independant histories, archaeology etc, have you a reliable reference for Paul to recommend. etc.

So Paul deified Jesus!

Thanks

[JehovahsWitness]

So Paul deified Jesus!

No, that's nonsense. According to all available evidence Jesus was executed well before Paul had any direct dealings with his (Jesus) disciples. As Saul, the Pharisian zealot, he certainly opposed the Christians, as they came to be known, at least initially, but according to Acts Paul/Saulconverted and became a supporter of the teachings of Christ. There is nothing in his writings that contradict (as in cannot be reasonably harmonized) with the gospel accounts of Jesus' teachings..



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JEHOVAHS WITNESS

For further details please go to other posts related to ...

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[JehovahsWitness]

...as pertians Paul's particular sect of Christianity in the 50s-60s

THE WRITINGS OF THE APOSTLE PAUL

We only know about what you refer to as "Paul's particular sect of Christianity" from the writings we find preserved in the Christian Greek scriptures. My comments are based on said scripture. Both Paul and Jesus of Nazareth were Paul was a worshippers of יהוה as are all that share their faith and their teaching can easily seen to be harmonious.





JEHOVAH'S (יהוה) WITNESS


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[Conversator]

Literally everything I said in post # 1 and # 9 has been condensed to: ' er, Paul believed in the angels, so? ' Fine, so be it. Paul's angelic terminology: principalities, rulers of this age, guardians and managers etc., is definitely not Pharisaic ( Paul was supposed to be a Pharisee taught by famous Rabbi Gamaliel). Paul's angelic terminology is exclusively Gnostic. Every time Paul quotes the Tanach, it is nothing even slightly resembling the Hebrew Masoretic text ( which Pharisees used exclusively ). This is super bizarre!