True Christians rest assured that Jesus is God, with Scripture to assure them of that. Sadly, the vast majority of them do not understand that Jesus is not part of a trinity. Jesus is THE God Almighty, the ONE and only God, and this is very easy to prove. Though many will fight tooth and nail to deny this, and will not be convinced no matter how much of the Bible is presented to prove this FACT to them, there are a select few who will hear the voice of Jesus Christ in this Truth and will begin to seek confirmation of this within Scripture.
The verses that will be provided in this OP will be deaf-eared by the majority of those who reply to this thread and will need to be re-posted many times to no avail. Those who have ears to hear will begin, slowly but surely, to incorporate this understanding into their doctrine as pure Scripture will be used well to make this case. If you are one of the few who will hear the Truth of this understanding, take heed of the verses that are provided and look at them very closely in context. I will be happy to discuss this information further with those who are sincere, but I will spend very little time going in circles with those who are clearly offended and only wish to argue.
One of the ways we discover this Truth is through repeating patterns in the Scriptures that give us hints and clues to greater Truths. One of these is the repeated writing with God's finger. We see God Almighty writing with His own finger the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20 and that is confirmed in Exodus 31:18. Next, we see a hand appearing from nowhere in Daniel 5:5 to write upon the wall of King Belshazzar's home when he desecrated the vessels of God's Temple. Lastly, we see Jesus writing with His finger in the sand in John 8:6 & 8. This is not a coincidence, it is a sign from God that Jesus is the same individual who wrote, and created (John 1:1, 14), the 10 Commandments.
Jesus tells us in Luke 24:27 that He was personally involved with all the prophets that ever lived back to the time of Moses. This not only provides pre-existence of Jesus Christ, but it reveals Him as the Holy Spirit which is confirmed by Him in John 14:21-23 and by Paul in Romans 8:9-11. That last passage also indicates that God Almighty is the Spirit as well, and we see that expressed plainly in John 4:24.
There is much, much more to this Truth and we will unfold it further as others respond. God bless.
JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #21.
• John 1:1 . . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
• John 1:14 . . And the Word was made flesh, and the flesh was God.
No; the Word's flesh wasn't God, and couldn't be God, because Jesus is easily shown biologically related to David, and from thence biologically related to Adam; indicating baby Jesus was a creature of design, and his conception was for real rather than a gimmick. (cf. Heb 10:5)
Also; several times in the New Testament the Word's flesh is described as God's "begotten son" indicating the Father pre-existed Jesus.
Along with that, Phil 2:6-8 testifies that the Word set aside his deity when he came into the world. That was essential in order for him to be a bona fide human being instead of a freaky hominid.
All in all; I sincerely believe it's a huge mistake to insist Jesus was divine at birth. He's ranked as God now, yes, but he wasn't to start with; no, not prior to the cross.
• Phil 2:8-9 . . And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name.
"the name" above every name is of course Jehovah (a.k.a. Yahweh) and God's throne is the "highest place". (Ps 110:1)
NOTE: The first of Jesus' friends to address him as God was Thomas; and the timing couldn't have been better. Had he addressed Jesus as God prior to his crucifixion; Thomas would've likely incurred a scolding. (cf. Matt 19:17)
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• John 1:1 . . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
• John 1:14 . . And the Word was made flesh, and the flesh was God.
No; the Word's flesh wasn't God, and couldn't be God, because Jesus is easily shown biologically related to David, and from thence biologically related to Adam; indicating baby Jesus was a creature of design, and his conception was for real rather than a gimmick. (cf. Heb 10:5)
Also; several times in the New Testament the Word's flesh is described as God's "begotten son" indicating the Father pre-existed Jesus.
Along with that, Phil 2:6-8 testifies that the Word set aside his deity when he came into the world. That was essential in order for him to be a bona fide human being instead of a freaky hominid.
All in all; I sincerely believe it's a huge mistake to insist Jesus was divine at birth. He's ranked as God now, yes, but he wasn't to start with; no, not prior to the cross.
• Phil 2:8-9 . . And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name.
"the name" above every name is of course Jehovah (a.k.a. Yahweh) and God's throne is the "highest place". (Ps 110:1)
NOTE: The first of Jesus' friends to address him as God was Thomas; and the timing couldn't have been better. Had he addressed Jesus as God prior to his crucifixion; Thomas would've likely incurred a scolding. (cf. Matt 19:17)
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #22It's not a threat at all.otseng wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:46 pm
Moderator Final Warning
Please do not make personal comments or threaten people they are going to hell.
Please review the Rules.
______________
Moderator final warnings serve as the last strike towards users. Additional violations will result in a probation vote. Further infractions will lead to banishment. Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
It's a Warning.
You would do well to heed that Warning yourself.
Those who silence God's Truth will burn in hell.
Final Warning.
Last edited by Runner on Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #23[Replying to Runner in post #1
In Matthew 19, when Jesus is debating with his critics on divorce, they ask him why Moses allowed it. His response in verse 8 is, "For the hardness of your hearts Moses suffered you to put away your wives". That's what Jesus says. But is it what Moses says?
Deuteronomy 1:3 declares:
In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses proclaimed to the Israelites all that the LORD had commanded him concerning them.
So while Jesus is dismissing something Moses gave as "the hardness of your hearts", Moses----assuming that he wrote the law----declares that all of the law is what God commanded. This declaration is repeated in Dt. 4:2, 11:13 and 13:18.
In John 5:47, Jesus asks the religious leaders how they can believe what he says if they don't believe what Moses wrote. If Jesus himself believed what Moses wrote, he would have to believe that the Law allowing divorce was given by God (Dt. 1:3) to do what was right in God's eyes (Dt. 13:18). So when Jesus says, "For the hardness of your hearts Moses suffered you to put away your wives", he was actually saying, "For the hardness of your hearts God suffered you to put away your wives. And if Jesus was God, then he was saying, "For the hardness of your hearts I suffered you to put away your wives.
If Jesus was God, how could he allow divorce as a way of doing what was right in his eyes and then condemn the very divorce he allowed for that purpose as "the hardness of your hearts"? That would be double-mindedness, indicating that Jesus was not God.
Since you bring up Moses, let's look at the issue of Jesus's alleged divinity in the context of Moses. And like yourself, I will be using scripture.Jesus tells us in Luke 24:27 that He was personally involved with all the prophets that ever lived back to the time of Moses.
In Matthew 19, when Jesus is debating with his critics on divorce, they ask him why Moses allowed it. His response in verse 8 is, "For the hardness of your hearts Moses suffered you to put away your wives". That's what Jesus says. But is it what Moses says?
Deuteronomy 1:3 declares:
In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses proclaimed to the Israelites all that the LORD had commanded him concerning them.
So while Jesus is dismissing something Moses gave as "the hardness of your hearts", Moses----assuming that he wrote the law----declares that all of the law is what God commanded. This declaration is repeated in Dt. 4:2, 11:13 and 13:18.
In John 5:47, Jesus asks the religious leaders how they can believe what he says if they don't believe what Moses wrote. If Jesus himself believed what Moses wrote, he would have to believe that the Law allowing divorce was given by God (Dt. 1:3) to do what was right in God's eyes (Dt. 13:18). So when Jesus says, "For the hardness of your hearts Moses suffered you to put away your wives", he was actually saying, "For the hardness of your hearts God suffered you to put away your wives. And if Jesus was God, then he was saying, "For the hardness of your hearts I suffered you to put away your wives.
If Jesus was God, how could he allow divorce as a way of doing what was right in his eyes and then condemn the very divorce he allowed for that purpose as "the hardness of your hearts"? That would be double-mindedness, indicating that Jesus was not God.
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #24If you're here to discredit Scripture, we don't have any common foundation to discuss/debate anything to begin with, do we?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:46 amSince you bring up Moses, let's look at the issue of Jesus's alleged divinity in the context of Moses. And like yourself, I will be using scripture.
In Matthew 19, when Jesus is debating with his critics on divorce, they ask him why Moses allowed it. His response in verse 8 is, "For the hardness of your hearts Moses suffered you to put away your wives". That's what Jesus says. But is it what Moses says?
Deuteronomy 1:3 declares:
In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses proclaimed to the Israelites all that the LORD had commanded him concerning them.
So while Jesus is dismissing something Moses gave as "the hardness of your hearts", Moses----assuming that he wrote the law----declares that all of the law is what God commanded. This declaration is repeated in Dt. 4:2, 11:13 and 13:18.
In John 5:47, Jesus asks the religious leaders how they can believe what he says if they don't believe what Moses wrote. If Jesus himself believed what Moses wrote, he would have to believe that the Law allowing divorce was given by God (Dt. 1:3) to do what was right in God's eyes (Dt. 13:18). So when Jesus says, "For the hardness of your hearts Moses suffered you to put away your wives", he was actually saying, "For the hardness of your hearts God suffered you to put away your wives. And if Jesus was God, then he was saying, "For the hardness of your hearts I suffered you to put away your wives.
If Jesus was God, how could he allow divorce as a way of doing what was right in his eyes and then condemn the very divorce he allowed for that purpose as "the hardness of your hearts"? That would be double-mindedness, indicating that Jesus was not God.
It is asinine to debate whether Jesus is God Almighty or not with someone who questions, and doubts, Scripture.
And, for the record, Moses didn't write the Commandments. God did with His own finger.
Twice.
Just as He wrote on the interior wall of king Belshazzar's house when the king desecrated the sacred vessels of the Temple to entertain his guests.
And just as He wrote in the sand when the adulteress was brought to Him to be stoned.
It is a consistent observation of mine how many of those who debate against the great Truths of Scripture have a severe deficit of knowledge, and understanding, of the Bible. They would rather hear from man of a controversial subject in the Bible and go out and parrot it and argue against it than to devote themselves to the diligent study of the Scriptures and to commit themselves to the obedience to God that opens the doors of knowledge to everything written therein.
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #25[Replying to Runner in post #24
Am I discrediting scripture by pointing out what scripture says?If you're here to discredit Scripture, we don't have any common foundation to discuss/debate anything to begin with, do we?
Moses is said to have given the written law I quoted, is he not? And in John 5:47, Jesus is the one who places such emphasis on what Moses wrote.And, for the record, Moses didn't write the Commandments. God did with His own finger.
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #26Your intention is very clearly to propose contradiction in the Scriptures.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:22 pmAm I discrediting scripture by pointing out what scripture says?
And, for the record, Moses didn't write the Commandments. God did with His own finger.
You are playing word games now because your previous direction was cut off.Moses is said to have given the written law I quoted, is he not? And in John 5:47, Jesus is the one who places such emphasis on what Moses wrote.
First you said 'wrote', now it's 'gave.'
I don't play those games.
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #27[Replying to Runner in post #26
I'm pointing out how Jesus contradicts scripture.Your intention is very clearly to propose contradiction in the Scriptures.
It's Jesus who refers to what Moses wrote, so Moses presumably gave the law by writing it.You are playing word games now because your previous direction was cut off.
First you said 'wrote', now it's 'gave.'
I don't play those games.
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #28But that is the point:. The passage implies there is no certainty that in the future people will be One, just as Jesus and god are now one.tam wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:21 am Peace to you,
That is beside the point. Do you think that this means that possibly in the future all believers may be one being? One human?Miles wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:20 amThe future imperfect tense of the word "may" does not denote certitude, but merely future possibility.tam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:00 pm Peace to you,
Just setting up for who is being spoken about.Miles wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:38 pmSo, we havetam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:16 pm
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
Oops sorry. John 17:20-23.Gotta give us a book, chapter, and verse if you truly want a reply.
20 My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, Irrelevant!
Correct. Please note that this second thought is connected to the first thought - that all of them may be one, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. That - you are in me and I am in you - makes them one.21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. Being in something is not being identical to it.
The two are connected. That they may be one AS we are one.22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— They being one is a decidedly separate animal from we being one.
Tending to or not, this would require "One" to be qualified, which it is not. Sorry, but you can't pick and choose what a word can and cannot mean to accommodate your liking or theology. "One" standing alone, unqualified, assumes the nature of being "in all ways."Take the phrase: "We are one in this." Tends to mean that we are one 'in mind' or 'in heart' or 'in purpose' or 'in thoughts', etc. No one saying 'we are one in this' is saying that he and someone else are one person/human/ being. "We are one" never means that we are the same person/being/human.Sorry, but the English language begs to differ. That God and His Son are one makes them exactly that.The point: being one does not mean that the two (or more persons) are the same being. That 'we' are all one does not make us the same human. That God and His Son are one does not make them the same being/same God.
The only point I've been addressing in our exchange is your contention that Jesus and god are not identical. That John 10:30: "I and the Father are one,” does not mean they are the same being, but are two separate beings, and so far I have yet to see any scripture or argument supporting such a claim.You're missing the point.But scripture says no such thing. At most it says "that they may be." (see note above.)If many men being one does not make them the same human; why would God and His Son being one, make them the same being/same God?23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Again, being in something is not being identical to it. [/indent]
Which still leaves us with Jesus's declaration of identity in John 10:30. A unique form of identity shared with no other.
30"I and the Father are one.”
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #29Peace to you,
Taken at face value, why in the world would anyone think that His words 'my Father and I are one' somehow means that they are one being/one person?
I and my Father = two people.
Christ prayed TO His Father. Taken at face value, that means two people. His Father was in heaven (to be prayed TO); Christ was on the earth doing the praying.
Fathers and Sons are two people. (assuming we have one father and one son)
The Father said, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." <- face value = two people.
And two or more people can be one (in various ways) without being one person. Note that this 'one person' is a qualifier as well, Miles, and Christ NEVER said 'my Father and I are one person'. He never even said 'my Father and I are one God'.
Unless you are going to suggest that Christ prayed for all who believe in Him to become one person; one human being... you are using a double standard by claiming that Christ must have meant that He and His Father are one person/one being.
Christ is the perfect image of His Father (God is as Christ revealed Him to be). That does not mean that He is His own Father.
Peace again to you.
It doesn't matter Miles. Do you think Christ was praying for all the people who believed in Him to become one person, or one human? <- if you can answer that question, then you will see that Christ saying that He and His Father are one does not mean that He and His Father are one and the same person.Miles wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:38 pmBut that is the point:. The passage implies there is no certainty that in the future people will be One, just as Jesus and god are now one.tam wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:21 am Peace to you,
That is beside the point. Do you think that this means that possibly in the future all believers may be one being? One human?Miles wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:20 amThe future imperfect tense of the word "may" does not denote certitude, but merely future possibility.tam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:00 pm Peace to you,
Just setting up for who is being spoken about.Miles wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:38 pmSo, we havetam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:16 pm
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
Oops sorry. John 17:20-23.Gotta give us a book, chapter, and verse if you truly want a reply.
20 My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, Irrelevant!
Correct. Please note that this second thought is connected to the first thought - that all of them may be one, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. That - you are in me and I am in you - makes them one.21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. Being in something is not being identical to it.
The two are connected. That they may be one AS we are one.22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— They being one is a decidedly separate animal from we being one.
Don't try and make this about my 'theology'.Tending to or not, this would require "One" to be qualified, which it is not. Sorry, but you can't pick and choose what a word can and cannot mean to accommodate your liking or theology. "One" standing alone, unqualified, assumes the nature of being "in all ways."Take the phrase: "We are one in this." Tends to mean that we are one 'in mind' or 'in heart' or 'in purpose' or 'in thoughts', etc. No one saying 'we are one in this' is saying that he and someone else are one person/human/ being. "We are one" never means that we are the same person/being/human.Sorry, but the English language begs to differ. That God and His Son are one makes them exactly that.The point: being one does not mean that the two (or more persons) are the same being. That 'we' are all one does not make us the same human. That God and His Son are one does not make them the same being/same God.
Taken at face value, why in the world would anyone think that His words 'my Father and I are one' somehow means that they are one being/one person?
I and my Father = two people.
Christ prayed TO His Father. Taken at face value, that means two people. His Father was in heaven (to be prayed TO); Christ was on the earth doing the praying.
Fathers and Sons are two people. (assuming we have one father and one son)
The Father said, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." <- face value = two people.
And two or more people can be one (in various ways) without being one person. Note that this 'one person' is a qualifier as well, Miles, and Christ NEVER said 'my Father and I are one person'. He never even said 'my Father and I are one God'.
Unless you are going to suggest that Christ prayed for all who believe in Him to become one person; one human being... you are using a double standard by claiming that Christ must have meant that He and His Father are one person/one being.
I said that they are not the same being/same person/same God.The only point I've been addressing in our exchange is your contention that Jesus and god are not identical.You're missing the point.But scripture says no such thing. At most it says "that they may be." (see note above.)If many men being one does not make them the same human; why would God and His Son being one, make them the same being/same God?23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Again, being in something is not being identical to it. [/indent]
Which still leaves us with Jesus's declaration of identity in John 10:30. A unique form of identity shared with no other.
30"I and the Father are one.”
.
Christ is the perfect image of His Father (God is as Christ revealed Him to be). That does not mean that He is His own Father.
Just the statement "I and the Father are one" shows two beings. "I" is one person. "The Father" is another person. See the rest above.That John 10:30: "I and the Father are one,” does not mean they are the same being, but are two separate beings, and so far I have yet to see any scripture or argument supporting such a claim.
Peace again to you.
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Re: JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
Post #30And what does "are one" mean? Yup! . . . . . . . . . . . . Or did you simply forget about that part? Like it isn't the object of the entire sentence or something. Because it is!
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