I've read the bible (old and new testaments) cover to cover twice in my life. I use the Student Bible of the International version. I'm now on my third time around, however I find myself really struggling with acceptance of the old testament and it is causing me lose my faith (which previously was very strong). The old testament is full of overt violence, aggression and atrocities..... all supposedly committed at the behest of God. For example, God telling the Israelites the slaughter very man, woman and child (numbering in the tens of thousands) in neighboring tribes many times, and actually punishing the Israelites for showing mercy (and therefore disobeying his orders). That does not sound like a kind, loving God. And, why didn't an omnipotent God just do this himself? So, it makes you doubt ALL of the old testament (and by extension the new testament too). I'm not sure how people are supposed to get moral lessons and directions for proper living from that. It seems to vary wildly from the more loving messages in the new testament, but even Jesus himself frequently refers back to the old testament, it's prophets and teachings.
There also are numerous laws/directives (Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc) , aside from the 10 commandments, that seem to have no point/purpose and don't seem to have anything to do with a loving message (ex: Don't cook a young goat in the milk of it's mother). Again, applying a logical mind, this leaves me with more and more doubts.
I rationalize the time period, the potential translational errors, the potential political interference etc., but logical analysis still leaves me shaken.
Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #21I'm not much for the argument of how one's geography, or family, determines their faith, but I can't argue against the numbers either. I prefer to think one's come to their religious beliefs sincerely, but can't argue against coercion either.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:01 am I havent read Joey's post but I suspect he is not writing from a place of faith. The OP is someone that claimed to have faith and that a simple reading of the stories of the bible weakened his faith. It is unnecessariky insulting to imply that anyone with faith that is inspired by the stories, must have to quote you, "already drank the Kool-aid" implying that the men and women of faith that may not have had the means and opportunity to study scripture, are not only gullible but victims of mind control and potentially self destructive.
In this matter, I prefer to think folks ain't near the Kool-aid drinkers, but just get it wrong.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #22This also, as a weird testament to the repeating concentric nature of reality, doesn't make a lot of sense at face value. Why would somebody intentionally make it more difficult to believe their teachings?otseng wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:36 amHaving studied the Bible for over 30 years and argued about the Bible on this forum for 19 years, I'm now even more convinced of the truthfulness of the Bible.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:25 amA testament to your fine reading compression and rational thinking skills.
Here's the ironic thing. If one just reads the Bible, it is easy to lose your faith. However, if one studies the Bible, it generally leads to increasing your faith. We see this also with Jesus. He never made it easy to be a disciple. Things he said didn't make sense to most. He spoke in parables that needed to be decoded and not just taken at face value.
So, don't just read the Bible, but study the Bible.
But if you have pulled at the thread about whether we're responsible for recognising our own failings and correcting them, it might actually be the answer. I remain atheist but it's still a good answer to the moral question.
I can't quite put it into words, except to say that if you have the will and intellect to dig deeper, you're probably responsible for doing that, but if you were born without arms let alone a shovel, then you get a pass.
No more than every parent is necessarily abusing their child for enforcing rules the child doesn't understand. Some are. Some are not. Everyone on this forum got the shovel so there's no reason to complain, at least not a personal one. How we fight for people who are being abused is a difficult question, since intervention can lead to abuse too.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:01 amIt is unnecessarily insulting to imply that anyone with faith that is inspired by the stories, must have to quote you, "already drank the Kool-aid" implying that the men and women of faith that may not have had the means and opportunity to study scripture, are not only gullible but victims of mind control and potentially self destructive.
As another testament to the weird, repeating, concentric nature of reality, my answer is the same in and out of the metaphor: The kid leaves when he says he wants to leave. Help, don't push.
I don't give people big shoves in the direction of atheism lest I push someone off a cliff. I'm very happy if people agree with me but I try not to be a circle jerk.
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #23Why do Christians still read the Old Testament?
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #26[Replying to otseng in post #10
Couldn't people study the Quran, the Upanishads or the Book of Mormon and get the same result----an increase of faith----especially if that's what they're looking for? Is the Bible the only book which gets to be accepted without question no matter what it says?Here's the ironic thing. If one just reads the Bible, it is easy to lose your faith. However, if one studies the Bible, it generally leads to increasing your faith. We see this also with Jesus. He never made it easy to be a disciple. Things he said didn't make sense to most. He spoke in parables that needed to be decoded and not just taken at face value.
So, don't just read the Bible, but study the Bible.
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #27If people want to read those books, go for it. And if they want to argue they are on par with the Bible, I'd welcome a debate with them.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:24 pm Couldn't people study the Quran, the Upanishads or the Book of Mormon and get the same result----an increase of faith----especially if that's what they're looking for? Is the Bible the only book which gets to be accepted without question no matter what it says?
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #28Would you welcome debate with people who raise critical questions about what par the Christian Bible itself is on?otseng wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:37 pmIf people want to read those books, go for it. And if they want to argue they are on par with the Bible, I'd welcome a debate with them.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:24 pm Couldn't people study the Quran, the Upanishads or the Book of Mormon and get the same result----an increase of faith----especially if that's what they're looking for? Is the Bible the only book which gets to be accepted without question no matter what it says?
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #29I've been doing this for the past 1.5 years in How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?. However, if anyone wants to debate anything in particular about the Bible, they'll have to get in line and wait until the current topic is over.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:44 pm Would you welcome debate with people who raise critical questions about what par the Christian Bible itself is on?
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
Post #30Fair enough. I, for one, have made a few contributions you can circle back to as time allows.otseng wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:05 pmI've been doing this for the past 1.5 years in How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?. However, if anyone wants to debate anything in particular about the Bible, they'll have to get in line and wait until the current topic is over.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:44 pm Would you welcome debate with people who raise critical questions about what par the Christian Bible itself is on?
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