Born from above!

[Bobcat]

Jesus says you must be born from above.

Scripture says he who is born from above is from heaven.

Since man does not really know where heaven is how can he know who comes from heaven or who is from above?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

John 3:7
7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, "You must be born from above".


John 3:31
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

So, are you born from above? Are you from heaven?

[TRANSPONDER]

Tossing out Biblequotes indeed proves nothing.It is using the Bible to prove the Bible. Or rather it is selecting the Bible to prove a particular idea. And it seems that whatever ideas one has (including that God is a nasty piece of work) there are Biblequotes that can be used to support that, too.

Still, to return to the topic, I don't see why it has to made a debate. I have no doubt the 'born from above' as well as Born again are referring to the same thing - converting to Jesusfaith. One refers to it like something conferred from above and the other is what the convert does to accept it. I seeno reason to over-complicate this matter.

[Bobcat]

Youre trying to say Jesus words are worthless but you are using human logic that cannot get any kind of revelation.

There is proof but it is difficult to find because God wants those who are willing to work for it.

"Why won't they believe in me? I'm making it as difficult as I can! "

If this is the best you can do, I'm gonna keep praying to the Great Pumpkin.


...Snip the preaching...

"Anyone who is not willing to pick up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

Moderator Clarification

If you are attempting to quote the Bible you've done so inaccurately and as I pointed out previously, the Bible is not considered authoritative in this subforum. Did you miss my post that explained this?

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Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

Oh. I did miss that post. Even though theyre not authoritative to some they are to others. Is it against the rules to quote the Bible in this forum?

There is no mistake in the quote.

Matthew 10:38 NRS

38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

[JoeyKnothead]

Oh. I did miss that post. Even though theyre not authoritative to some they are to others. Is it against the rules to quote the Bible in this forum?

There is no mistake in the quote.

Matthew 10:38 NRS

38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The problem you seem to be having is you think Bible claims are true and factual just because they're in the bible.

Let's count the real or implied claims...

1. Jesus / God actually said this.
2. There's no other way to be considered "worthy" by that'n.

My question is..

What makes them worthy of being followed?

[1213]

Tossing out Biblequotes indeed proves nothing....

Not even Bible wrong?

[TRANSPONDER]

Tossing out Biblequotes indeed proves nothing....

Not even Bible wrong?

no, not by themselves. The point has to be argued out. Just take that Matthew -quote. It is true that it is reflecting dogma about what a Christian is supposed to do, though rarely does as another quote says it involved giving all one has to the poor (which they generally do not) before following Jesus. So you see, quotes by themselves prove nothing, but making them part of a discussion is both valid and necessary.

Too often we get a Biblequote flung at us as though it was evidence of something.We don't even accept the Bible as true, why would we accept anything in it as proving anything? I know Bible -believers back up their own takes on Dogma by finding a Biblequote that looks like it has something to do with it, but that counts for nothing with those who want to know why we should believe the Bible. Even if it does contain some people and places known to have existed.

So do the James Bond films.

P.s you can skip this bit, it is an aside. But back in the 70's I picked up in a bargain -box 'Best of trekkie' an anthology from Star Trek Fan magazine. As I was a bit of a fan (still am) I picked it up and if that was the Best of Trek, I'd hate to see the worst. But I recall one article that had a couple of Christian girls matching Biblequotes to the Orig,series characters. The editor was clearly mystified as to what the point was but praised them for their effort. But it is perhaps a clue as to how Bible exegesis works - you pick some passage that looks remotely anything to do with it and quote it as though it was evidence.

I don't know - I've never been a believer so I have never done it, but that seems to be how it works and in fact was started by Paul, backing up his claims with OT quotes, often out of context.

[Bobcat]

Oh. I did miss that post. Even though theyre not authoritative to some they are to others. Is it against the rules to quote the Bible in this forum?

There is no mistake in the quote.

Matthew 10:38 NRS

38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The problem you seem to be having is you think Bible claims are true and factual just because they're in the bible.

Let's count the real or implied claims...

1. Jesus / God actually said this.
2. There's no other way to be considered "worthy" by that'n.

My question is..

What makes them worthy of being followed?

I dont think the verses I quote are true just cause theyre in the Bible. In fact not everything in the Bible is scripture as most believe. Scripture is Gods word from His servants, the prophets. Most of the New Testament is not scripture, not inspired, but Christians believe it is.

"The LORD is near to everyone who calls upon Him, who calls upon Him in truth."

"Father your word is truth."

[JoeyKnothead]

I dont think the verses I quote are true just cause theyre in the Bible. In fact not everything in the Bible is scripture as most believe. Scripture is Gods word from His servants, the prophets.

How can we confirm you speak truth here?

Most of the New Testament is not scripture, not inspired, but Christians believe it is.

They believe a bunch of goofy stuff.

"The LORD is near to everyone who calls upon Him, who calls upon Him in truth."

"Father your word is truth."

Now your task is showing the nearness of the Lord that gets him calledeth upon.

Biblical claims would be among the weakest forms of evidence here, because the Bible is 'selling' this idea.

If that's all you have, then we're just down to arguing "what they really mean".

Can you see how just pointing to the Bible doesn't establish it as an authoritative document?

[1213]

...Just take that Matthew -quote. It is true that it is reflecting dogma about what a Christian is supposed to do, though rarely does as another quote says it involved giving all one has to the poor (which they generally do not) before following Jesus. So you see, quotes by themselves prove nothing, but making them part of a discussion is both valid and necessary.

But, you think people follow Jesus as told in the scripture otherwise, they just don't give up their money? How could anyone follow Jesus as told in the scripture, when Jesus is not on earth?

Too often we get a Biblequote flung at us as though it was evidence of something.We don't even accept the Bible as true, why would we accept anything in it as proving anything? ...

I think it is fascinating how atheist cherry pick Biblequotes and flung them like some evidence against Christians and don't bother to even notice the whole scripture, just cut it from where it fits to their propaganda. I think it is very dishonest way. I could as well quote what you said there in this way: "...We... accept the Bible as true...". Now, you said it.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Just take that Matthew -quote. It is true that it is reflecting dogma about what a Christian is supposed to do, though rarely does as another quote says it involved giving all one has to the poor (which they generally do not) before following Jesus. So you see, quotes by themselves prove nothing, but making them part of a discussion is both valid and necessary.

But, you think people follow Jesus as told in the scripture otherwise, they just don't give up their money? How could anyone follow Jesus as told in the scripture, when Jesus is not on earth?

Too often we get a Biblequote flung at us as though it was evidence of something.We don't even accept the Bible as true, why would we accept anything in it as proving anything? ...

I think it is fascinating how atheist cherry pick Biblequotes and flung them like some evidence against Christians and don't bother to even notice the whole scripture, just cut it from where it fits to their propaganda. I think it is very dishonest way. I could as well quote what you said there in this way: "...We... accept the Bible as true...". Now, you said it.

Great Now we got past apologetics of the 1st kind, arguing on the evidence, and we are on apologetics of the 2nd kind - fiddling.

You know and i know that the quote about following was intended as practical for the time as Jesus was alive, but is now a metaphor for joining the church. Give your money to the poor (1) and dedicate yourself to the Church. Who does that? But that was a very clumsy attempt to wrongfoot me.

Same thing with the attempt to play my own game. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. you chuck a Biblequote at me, it proves nothing until you show the source of the quote is reliable.I 'chuck a Biblequote at you' and show it doesn't work because the world we live in doesn't need proving, and you lose a move. If you are going to play lawyer tricks, you'll need to up your game.

(1) which, being interpreted,means give your money to the Church and let them worry about the Poor.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
(1) which, being interpreted,means give your money to the Church and let them worry about the Poor.

I've built four churches (or additions) in my career, and not the first one of them were poor.