Questioning the Crucifixion

[QED]

I hope it will be possible to have a sensible debate about what will no doubt be a very emotive issue here -- an issue that I genuinely don't understand and one that fills me with curiosity: Why it is that the execution of Jesus is supposed to be such a 'big deal'? After all, people were being strung-up all over the place for their beliefs, crimes or even just for sadistic pleasure. Whole rivers of blood have flown out of unjustified human agony before and after the this one particular event. But the crucifixion of Christ is meant to stand out -- because of what?

Sure he was the son of god (or one third of the trinity if that makes a difference) but he was also supposed to be supernatural, with the ability to perform miracles such as returning to life (I'm thinking PlayStation character here). So in what way was his 'death' a set-back for god, in what way was it a loss to anyone?

Had the Romans actually killed an irreplaceable (or mortal) son of God, then there would have been a genuine sacrifice but as he arose afterwards there doesn't seem to be any net loss hence I'm puzzled by the enormous impact it seems to have on the followers of Christianity. When a mortal loses a son that surely is a tragic and irreplaceable loss (and there are no shortages of these unfortunate events in history) yet none that I can think of have made anything like the same sort of impact. Is it rational then that the Crucifixion should have such an impact or should it, if anything, be regarded as somewhat less consequential given the apparent lack of harm it did to those concerned?

[Greatest I Am]

In the beginning God's universe was Perfect and pure.
Then for some reason God decided to clutter His Perfection with an imperfect Hell, an imperfect earth, an imperfect man, and all other kinds of imperfect things, just so that later He has an excuse to get angry and send the souls that He has created to part of His universe that is now closed to God.

Does not make much logical sence does it, and yet those who believe in a hell must believe in an imperfect God. Or one that certainly does not know how to do much.

God does not say whoops that often does He.

How can believers believe in an incompetent God.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth along with a host of angels to care for and maintain His creations.

This, to me, seems a liberal translation. Where are you finding the information about the angels being created along with the heavens and earth?

You may not have to worry too much about that. The story in the Bible indicates incompetence here too. A full third of these angels turned on their master.

Poor manufacturing if you ask me.
God does not fail that often does He.

Regards
DL

[twobitsmedia]

In the beginning God's universe was Perfect and pure.
Then for some reason God decided to clutter His Perfection with an imperfect Hell, an imperfect earth, an imperfect man, and all other kinds of imperfect things, just so that later He has an excuse to get angry and send the souls that He has created to part of His universe that is now closed to God.

Does not make much logical sence does it, and yet those who believe in a hell must believe in an imperfect God. Or one that certainly does not know how to do much.

God does not say whoops that often does He.

How can believers believe in an incompetent God.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth along with a host of angels to care for and maintain His creations.

This, to me, seems a liberal translation. Where are you finding the information about the angels being created along with the heavens and earth?

You may not have to worry too much about that. The story in the Bible indicates incompetence here too. A full third of these angels turned on their master.

Poor manufacturing if you ask me.
God does not fail that often does He.

Regards
DL

I wasn't worried about it. I was just trying to figure out how you came up with the idea.

[Greatest I Am]

In the beginning God's universe was Perfect and pure.
Then for some reason God decided to clutter His Perfection with an imperfect Hell, an imperfect earth, an imperfect man, and all other kinds of imperfect things, just so that later He has an excuse to get angry and send the souls that He has created to part of His universe that is now closed to God.

Does not make much logical sence does it, and yet those who believe in a hell must believe in an imperfect God. Or one that certainly does not know how to do much.

God does not say whoops that often does He.

How can believers believe in an incompetent God.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth along with a host of angels to care for and maintain His creations.

This, to me, seems a liberal translation. Where are you finding the information about the angels being created along with the heavens and earth?

GIA has visited heaven and is in telepathic communication with god.

Bernie

I have enough problems on my own without you lying for me.
I am not in communication wit God.
I run away from those who have a relationship with God and talk with Him daily.

Please be sure of your facts before denigrating someone else OK.

Regards
DL

[McCulloch]

GIA has visited heaven and is in telepathic communication with god.

Bernie

I have enough problems on my own without you lying for me.
I am not in communication wit God.
I run away from those who have a relationship with God and talk with Him daily.

Please be sure of your facts before denigrating someone else OK.

Yes.
God is real.

God makes Himself seen through the spirit.
Many of the writers of the Bible were "in the spirit" when revelation came to them.
I call "in the spirit" telepathic communication.
I had one only experience like this.
I am sane and tend to speak the truth. In the anonymity of this place I have no reason to mislead. No gain.
If anecdotal experiences can be believed, you have found at least one for a ya in your question.

I have done my own little survey and search for other people who even describe telepathy the way I would and have not found any. Telepathy may be rare indeed but I do have a witness who would testify that I can I have done telepathy, my wife. The only other time I did what I did was with her at about the same time.
If they ever hook up lie detectors to the Internet it would be helpful in the revue of statements, no.

Bernie may have been mistaken about the number of times you have claimed that you have had telepathic communication with God, but not in the fact that you have made the claim.

I have admitted to a telepathic contact with what I think is the mind-head of God.
Here is where Heaven is with all departed souls.

The Heaven that I sensed on my one and only visit goes against most ideas in vogue.
Most believe that Heaven is the next evolution of our souls, and it is.
The thing is that I sensed that Heaven although enjoyable is only a way station on our next evolution.
I sensed an eagerness from the souls present for us to move along and bring on the end time. I also sensed that knowledge is supplied in a "quanta" or "packets" of information. I sensed that the souls were eager for themselves to move to their next challenge.
Heaven then may not be the next step but only one in a reality that is still not open to us.
As we have a purpose in this physical life, we may have a purpose in the next non physical life that also involves a collection of knowledge and wisdom.

You do write as though you have first hand knowledge of heaven. Forgive us for thinking that you believe that you have visited.

[Greatest I Am]

GIA has visited heaven and is in telepathic communication with god.

Bernie

I have enough problems on my own without you lying for me.
I am not in communication wit God.
I run away from those who have a relationship with God and talk with Him daily.

Please be sure of your facts before denigrating someone else OK.

Yes.
God is real.

God makes Himself seen through the spirit.
Many of the writers of the Bible were "in the spirit" when revelation came to them.
I call "in the spirit" telepathic communication.
I had one only experience like this.
I am sane and tend to speak the truth. In the anonymity of this place I have no reason to mislead. No gain.
If anecdotal experiences can be believed, you have found at least one for a ya in your question.

I have done my own little survey and search for other people who even describe telepathy the way I would and have not found any. Telepathy may be rare indeed but I do have a witness who would testify that I can I have done telepathy, my wife. The only other time I did what I did was with her at about the same time.
If they ever hook up lie detectors to the Internet it would be helpful in the revue of statements, no.

Bernie may have been mistaken about the number of times you have claimed that you have had telepathic communication with God, but not in the fact that you have made the claim.

I have admitted to a telepathic contact with what I think is the mind-head of God.
Here is where Heaven is with all departed souls.

The Heaven that I sensed on my one and only visit goes against most ideas in vogue.
Most believe that Heaven is the next evolution of our souls, and it is.
The thing is that I sensed that Heaven although enjoyable is only a way station on our next evolution.
I sensed an eagerness from the souls present for us to move along and bring on the end time. I also sensed that knowledge is supplied in a "quanta" or "packets" of information. I sensed that the souls were eager for themselves to move to their next challenge.
Heaven then may not be the next step but only one in a reality that is still not open to us.
As we have a purpose in this physical life, we may have a purpose in the next non physical life that also involves a collection of knowledge and wisdom.

You do write as though you have first hand knowledge of heaven. Forgive us for thinking that you believe that you have visited.

You both know that there is a hell of a difference between A communication with God and one who has daily communication.
Even I stay away from those who have a personal daily relationship with God.

Regards
DL

[myth-one.com]

This, to me, seems a liberal translation. Where are you finding the information about the angels being created along with the heavens and earth?

In that rarely read book The Holy Bible!

Thanks for the nice chart. I notice that you take the numbers from the Masoretic text rather than from earlier sources which have some different numbers. It's not too many numbers to copy accurately, and these are pretty important documents -- you would think such things would not be lost in the translation!

No problem, submit your numbers! Here's how: You can highlight my nice cute chart, click on edit and copy, and paste them into a reply. Then you can edit the chart with the correct nonmasoretic (hope that's a valid word) numbers from a prior age.

I also wonder why is it that all animals today, including humans, enjoy roughly the same number of heartbeats in a lifetime?

Do the conclusions of the great revered G. Johnson automatically apply to every animal in the past? I need to see his heartbeat data on the dinosaurs and even better would be the cardiogram data on say Adam. If Adam's heart beat was 60-70 and beated one billion times before he died, I will agree that he probably lied about living to 930 years of age.

Of course the mystery turns out to have a perfectly sensible explanation after all. But even if biology was completely skewed in Adam's day, the difference between 100 years and a 1000 years is nothing (literally) when compared to infinity. Immortality is just that is it not? So those impressive numbers might just as well have a mis-placed decimal point in them for the purposes of the current argument.
It seems then that the foundation upon which our emotional response to Jesus's sacrifice is built upon is a gross violation of Kleiber's law. I wonder how many practicing Christians were aware of that!

Are you somehow trying to apply the physical heartbeat number versus longevity and size of the animal to the spiritual world? If so, my answer is that spiritual beings do not have a physical heart. They have no blood to pump! No physical laws apply to the spiritual world, including Kleiber's.

Kleiber's work was in the 1930's. It can be verified to be true today by physical measurements and data. It cannot be proved to be true say 6000 years ago. The idea of "telomeres" limiting man's age was discovered only recently. If it was true 6000 years ago, then people could not have lived much over 120 years. If humans did live well over 120 years six thousand years ago, then this restriction or law was not true at that time. Let's see your chart numbers!

I hope it will be possible to have a sensible debate about what will no doubt be a very emotive issue here...

As with all topics and "debates" on this site, your hope vanished quickly... Ah hah! Finally a universal law? I think the "emotive" element fogs our minds sufficiently to protect us from the "sensible" stuff from opposing sides.

[twobitsmedia]

This, to me, seems a liberal translation. Where are you finding the information about the angels being created along with the heavens and earth?

In that rarely read book The Holy Bible!

Someone has a different version than the one I have read, because I still cannot find it.

[myth-one.com]

Where are you finding the information about the angels being created along with the heavens and earth?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. And all things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Everything not existent from the beginning had to be created. The only things existent from the beginning were God and the Word. All things were made by the Word, and without Him nothing was made. The Word is Jesus:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

The only part of God who became flesh and dwelt among us on the earth was Jesus. Also in the beginning, God (as the Word) created the heaven and the earth:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

When God began His recreation of the earth (verse 3) which had become "without form, and void, and dark" as mentioned in verse two, Satan and other angels were already on the earth. They had to have been created at or shortly after the original creation defined in verse one. Angels were not needed until the Word created something to maintain. Upon creating the earth, He created angels to care for it, and selected the archangel Satan as their leader. In Luke when Satan tempted Jesus forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth. It was his to offer:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore will worship me, all shall be thine.

Jesus will return to the earth at the Second Coming and defeat Satan and his followers. He and those who believe in Him will then rule the earth for ever and ever. Thats the story.

[bernee51]

Bernie

I have enough problems on my own without you lying for me.

I wouldn't lie for you - I'm sure you can do a fine job yourself.

I am not in communication with God.

See my point is proven already.

Are you denying now you claim to have or have had telepathic communication with god?

Did you or did you not claim to have visited heaven "only once"

Please be sure of your facts before denigrating someone else OK.

Your own words condemn you.

[Greatest I Am]

Bernie

I have enough problems on my own without you lying for me.

I wouldn't lie for you - I'm sure you can do a fine job yourself.

GIA wrote
Correct so let me.

I am not in communication with God.

See my point is proven already.

GIA wrote
No. The only point is that you place words in my mouth that I do not.

Are you denying now you claim to have or have had telepathic communication with god?

GIA wrote
Never have. Once only.

Did you or did you not claim to have visited heaven "only once"[/b
]
GIA wrote
As indicated. One time.

Please be sure of your facts before denigrating someone else OK.

Your own words condemn you.

If that is the case show me my quote.

Regards
DL