Does Intercessory Prayer Work?

[JoeMama]

The Bible says, "Ask and you shall receive."

A Harvard University study of about 2000 hospitalized coronary artery bypass graph surgeries showed that prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the patients' recoveries. God may have heard the prayers, but they seem to have been ignored.

(Google: intercessory prayer Dr. Herbert Benson)

Is this evidence that a prayer-answering god doesn't exist?

[TRANSPONDER]

...By Believing the right thing, one becomes 'Righteous', one doesn't have to Declare it.
...

Why do you think so?

I think it is more like, if person is righteous, he believes right things.

I think so because that is Paul's whole thesis. The NT is in line with this. Jesusfaith is what makes for righteousness, not good works. The point (which you seem to have forgotten) was that believing right means being righteous even if you never go out and preach it. That was the point.
One of these days I'll have to post of'skipping over' apologetics. I became aware of this from the very start - the response would sorta skip from a word or two to another while skipping the sense and context of what the argument actually was. It's why Bible apologists sometimes seem to lose track of the actual argument. Not all. Some are well able to stick to the point, but you ain't one of 'em.

Difficult to stick to the point, if the point is founded on wrong premises and is a straw-man argument.

I think you have misunderstood the meaning of works, or faith. Person does not become righteous by works, or faith. Person will be loyal/faithful and have right works, if he is righteous. Righteousness comes visible in actions. But actions are only like a fruit of a tree, it tells what kind of tree it is.

That's just tinkering with semantics. Aside from Paul who makes it clear that Faith (in Jesus) is what saves not Works, .Righteousness....is what? Tell me? Paul says it is Godfaith (Abraham was Righteous before the Law was given because he believed in God [Romans]) Later, Jesus died to wash out the sin and we became Righteous IF we believed in Jesus. Salvation by Faith. Not works. Though in Corinthians he had to add Works because they weren't as Righteous as his Theory proposed they would be and they were risking losing Grace.

So.what Righteousness are you talking about apart from that? You had better have a good answer after saying the other was based on false premises and a Strawman.

[1213]

That's just tinkering with semantics. Aside from Paul who makes it clear that Faith (in Jesus) is what saves not Works, .Righteousness....is what? Tell me? Paul says it is Godfaith (Abraham was Righteous before the Law was given because he believed in God [Romans]) Later, Jesus died to wash out the sin and we became Righteous IF we believed in Jesus. Salvation by Faith. Not works. Though in Corinthians he had to add Works because they weren't as Righteous as his Theory proposed they would be and they were risking losing Grace.

So.what Righteousness are you talking about apart from that? You had better have a good answer after saying the other was based on false premises and a Strawman.

I think this scripture could be helpful.

He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:17

The word "wisdom of the just" can be translated also, "righteousness", as it is in some translations. And wisdom of the just can be understood as right understanding. If person is righteous, he has the right understanding/wisdom. And if so, it comes visible in persons actions. Person with right understanding, does right actions. And this means, Abraham did right actions and so those actions tells he is righteous. It is the same as, if a tree produces apples, we know it is an apple tree.

Same is with the faith. If person is righteous, he is loyal/faithful to God. Faith or works doesn't make anyone righteous, because they are only the result from person's mind. I think this shouldn't be too difficult to understand. or what do you think, does your mind define what you do, or the thing you do, defines what you think and what you are?

[otseng]

Anyone who claims prayer works is a liar or idiot.

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[Avoice]

We can pray all day. All week and all year. Eventually we are all going to die.
People who prove Jesus is God becsuse their cancer went away is a rediculous argument. If you want to prove Jesus is God prove you are 130 years old and in good health

[TRANSPONDER]

That's just tinkering with semantics. Aside from Paul who makes it clear that Faith (in Jesus) is what saves not Works, .Righteousness....is what? Tell me? Paul says it is Godfaith (Abraham was Righteous before the Law was given because he believed in God [Romans]) Later, Jesus died to wash out the sin and we became Righteous IF we believed in Jesus. Salvation by Faith. Not works. Though in Corinthians he had to add Works because they weren't as Righteous as his Theory proposed they would be and they were risking losing Grace.

So.what Righteousness are you talking about apart from that? You had better have a good answer after saying the other was based on false premises and a Strawman.

I think this scripture could be helpful.

He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:17

The word "wisdom of the just" can be translated also, "righteousness", as it is in some translations. And wisdom of the just can be understood as right understanding. If person is righteous, he has the right understanding/wisdom. And if so, it comes visible in persons actions. Person with right understanding, does right actions. And this means, Abraham did right actions and so those actions tells he is righteous. It is the same as, if a tree produces apples, we know it is an apple tree.

Same is with the faith. If person is righteous, he is loyal/faithful to God. Faith or works doesn't make anyone righteous, because they are only the result from person's mind. I think this shouldn't be too difficult to understand. or what do you think, does your mind define what you do, or the thing you do, defines what you think and what you are?

That's a good response, I'll say, but flawed. Right understanding a wisdom doesn't necessarily mean doing ti right. It can just lead to more effectively doing the wrong. You need a desire to do the right and that is not the same as being smart. But what is doing the right? It is doing what God wants and what god wants is not always the right, as per the OT. We are in the dilemma of loyal servant of a dictator and doing what's right anyway. Doing what st right anyway cannot be linked to Godfaith. Unless you claim that non Christians can't be moral. We are back at loyalty to God even to killing your family if ordered (Abraham and Isaac) or being moral and never mind God.

You have either to say that loyalty to God, even if it means doing evil, is what Righteousness is, or this idea that simply submitting to God downloads righteous behavior into the head, which from what I've seen doesn't necessarily lead to moral actions. Loose and vague appeals to 'right understanding' linked to 'wisdom of the just' and 'spirit and power' are just inspirational verbiage that tells us nothing about being a good person and how that relates to Godfaith.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to otseng in post #53]

Fair. I got caught up in the moment.

[1213]

...Right understanding a wisdom doesn't necessarily mean doing ti right. It can just lead to more effectively doing the wrong. You need a desire to do the right and that is not the same as being smart. But what is doing the right? It is doing what God wants and what god wants is not always the right, as per the OT. We are in the dilemma of loyal servant of a dictator and doing what's right anyway. Doing what st right anyway cannot be linked to Godfaith. Unless you claim that non Christians can't be moral. We are back at loyalty to God even to killing your family if ordered (Abraham and Isaac) or being moral and never mind God.

I think with right understanding comes also the will to do what is right. But, I can agree that the desire to do right is also important.

And about Abraham, he trusted to God's promise that his offspring will live as God had told him, therefore he knew that Isaac would and could not die. In that I think he showed he trusted God.

I don't know anything that God wants that is not right.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Right understanding a wisdom doesn't necessarily mean doing ti right. It can just lead to more effectively doing the wrong. You need a desire to do the right and that is not the same as being smart. But what is doing the right? It is doing what God wants and what god wants is not always the right, as per the OT. We are in the dilemma of loyal servant of a dictator and doing what's right anyway. Doing what st right anyway cannot be linked to Godfaith. Unless you claim that non Christians can't be moral. We are back at loyalty to God even to killing your family if ordered (Abraham and Isaac) or being moral and never mind God.

I think with right understanding comes also the will to do what is right. But, I can agree that the desire to do right is also important.

And about Abraham, he trusted to God's promise that his offspring will live as God had told him, therefore he knew that Isaac would and could not die. In that I think he showed he trusted God.

I don't know anything that God wants that is not right.

If you don't know stuff in the Bible that isn't morally right, my pointing to it won't get through. This Right Understanding thing is a bit of a cheat. You will know that the Christians may do wrong, which is why we have repentance, confession, and rehabilitation, if it isn't so embarrassing that they have to be deemed 'not a real Christian'.

We agree on the desire to do right. One doesn't have to be a Christian for that, even if Christians don't see it. Thus the desire to do right doesn't come from Godfaith (though it may inspire or make one feel they are being watched, but that is no more than social awareness and CCTV with a miracle dimension.

As to Abraham, it is downright cynical to suggest that Abraham pretended to carry out God's demand to kill his son as he knew God wouldn't make him do it. But he couldn't be sure. He could produce another son or a dozen more if he wanted. He produced a whole new family for Job. He produced a Son for himself out of nothing (or I hope he did). No, I think we must reckon that Abraham was willing to kill his own son if God let him do it. Happened with Jeptha's daughter, and God let him do it.

I think the excuse fails there. God does and has done, evil. And the test with Abraham was, he would do it if God ordered him. God had to know that he would and was not counting that God was bluffing. If God knew that and Abraham would NOT have gone through with it, he'd fail the test.

Don't you agree? The only other way out is that God cannot read minds.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
We agree on the desire to do right. One doesn't have to be a Christian for that, even if Christians don't see it. Thus the desire to do right doesn't come from Godfaith (though it may inspire or make one feel they are being watched, but that is no more than social awareness and CCTV with a miracle dimension).
...

That bit I emboldenated is poetry.

It also brings to mind the sometimes nosy, judgemental nature of the holier'n thou bunch.

"I'm just trying to save you from God's wrath" rings hollow when it's the Christian's wrath on display.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
We agree on the desire to do right. One doesn't have to be a Christian for that, even if Christians don't see it. Thus the desire to do right doesn't come from Godfaith (though it may inspire or make one feel they are being watched, but that is no more than social awareness and CCTV with a miracle dimension).
...

That bit I emboldenated is poetry.

It also brings to mind the sometimes nosy, judgemental nature of the holier'n thou bunch.

"I'm just trying to save you from God's wrath" rings hollow when it's the Christian's wrath on display.

Thank you even though we got off topic, though we often end up debating reasons to believe Biblegod or, rather, rebutting reasons to Not believe in Biblegod. And inevitably, it ends up the Believer defending their faith rather than give reasons why any doubter should believe. The OT imposes an impossible dilemma,sofar as I can see - to excuse or justify horrendous evil or intent willingness and capability to do it either by the god or its' followers. And it is just the same today as it was back then.

We did intercessionary prayer, and the results were telling and have been for a long time: they know it doesn't work and will never try to validate prayer but will immediately look for excuses to not even try. I reckon I'm beyond trying to make excuse,let alone validate God and the Bible, but I'mat the 'why'.The whole mode of Faith - based thinking and how it's kept going and peddled as somehow a good thing that makes good people. What seems like a system of primate, let alone human, social structure with just another mythical dimension, one familiar from other places and times and with only religion variants, making this as man made as dance or poetry. For me we should be long beyond awarding the credit for what we do (none of the blame, man gets that allright) to a huge invisible human or vaguely humanlike cosmic intelligence. We should be trying to understand ourselves and I reckon we are on the edgeof not just understanding but of studying human morals, culture and society in terms of biological evolution, but human religion and myth, too.

Probably they'l be offended "We demand that it not be allowed to think about this matter!" (Hitch Hiker's guide to the universe). And we can expect (if it happens) we can expect all the pushback methods of religion that can no longer burn people at the stake. And we don't have to look very far to see how Law can be exploited by these people to get what they want.

But let's derail even further into why, when some are getting out of denial into metaphorically true or some vague Deism with the Bible true as analogy (any why that rather than any other religion or work of humans?) we still have people in denial about deep time geology and evolution? I was reminded this while watching a couple of Flat earth debates. Now, the huge majority of even Genesis -literalists and evolution -deniers buy a round earth.The indignantly deny the Bible depicts a flat earth - pretty much all the way though, in fact.

So they might watch a few of these debates and see the same methods, ignorance, mocking, gish -ga+llop attempt to lecture, denial, and failure to take the models to a wider context (notably combining the sun and moonn circling above the flat earth with the sun shifting from one side fo the disc to the other to produce day and night. Put them together and they refute each other. Just as the Hydroplate theory works on a table top model but not when applied to a whole ocean. Watching those may allow Genesis -literalists to see how they sound. Not least how Biblegod fidgets in the wings ready to pop on the debating -stage, but there's the thing, it has to work"Like Science" and the moment God waves a magic wand, you're done as surely as the Ark.



I'm halfway through but I have to take a break it's too painful. Why don't we feel the earth moving? Same reason we don't feel a plane zooming along. Turbulence and changes in speed aside. At a constant speed, we are just sitting there as we would sitting in our living room. Does this dude really not comprehend this or is he just in denial? It's the same when we point out slavery, the absurdity of Eden or the contradictions of the resurrections and we get excuses and denial.