Are Lies Immoral? If so, Why?

[Purple Knight]

Question for debate: Is lying inherently wrong? If so, why?

Christians believe God is perfect and that God doesn't lie. Is this simply a choice, is it necessary for us lesser beings to be able to trust, is it itself a deception, or is it an inherent part of perfection that a being should not lie?

Is it possible that lying is wrong for us, but not God, or vice-versa?

Is it uniquely or especially wrong to lie to a child? Or perhaps uniquely or especially permissible?

[JehovahsWitness]

People say we don't need a book to tell them what is right or wrong, yet here we are, debating if lying is immoral.

Is [the book] the book you are referring ...?

Yes. I feel confident if you want to make a point you will find the way to say in your own words what your point is.Since I dont expect you will, I feel confident this exchange is now over. Feel free to prove me wrong by writing why you have quoted the above verses.

Have a really terrific day,



JW

[boatsnguitars]

Yes. I feel confident if you want to make a point you will find the way to say in your own words what your point is.Since I dont expect you will, I feel confident this exchange is now over. Feel free to prove me wrong by writing why you have quoted the above verses.

Is lying always wrong? I imagine you would have told the truth in those examples and let people die?

This is the nuance of the issue that the Bible simply doesn't address because it's a simplistic story for simplistic people. To keep referring to an ancient text, written by woefully ignorant men, as the cure to our problems ignores the very problem you are claiming is cured by the book.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes. I feel confident if you want to make a point you will find the way to say in your own words what your point is.Since I dont expect you will, I feel confident this exchange is now over. Feel free to prove me wrong by writing why you have quoted the above verses.

Is lying always wrong? I imagine you would have told the truth in those examples and let people die?

I don't see my name on the OP and I see no explanation as to why you posted a list of bible verses. Generally like to debate the post not the poster so I won't repeat my request you explain in your own words why you posted the passages you did, I will simply link back in case you have forgotten what I asked.

LINK: viewtopic.php?p=1123176#p1123176


JEHOVAH’S WITNESS

[boatsnguitars]

Lying ...

- destroys trust
- wrecks relationships
- encourages corruption
- endangers lives
- perverts justice
...


People say we don't need a book to tell them what is right or wrong, yet here we are, debating if lying is immoral.

“Every violation of truth is not only a sort of suicide in the liar, but is a stab at the health of human society.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"the Devil.... is a liar and the father of the lie" - The Bible

Yet, lying saved people's lives. Lying has - throughout history - saved lives. Lying has saved relationships, friendships, countries, etc.

It's clear that the book you are referring to - if it claims that Lying is always bad - is the very reason we are debating it today, because it's patently clear that lying isn't ALWAYS wrong.

If Christians could understand morality, we wouldn't need to debate morality.

[JehovahsWitness]

... it's patently clear that lying isn't ALWAYS wrong.

Where is it patently clear? What support do you have for your position?



JW

[Miles]

Lying ...

- destroys trust
- wrecks relationships
- encourages corruption
- endangers lives
- perverts justice
...

BUT. . . .

What about all those lies that helped Anne Frank and other Jews escape from the Germans? Immoral?
What about the lies of hope told to dying children to help ease them in their last days of life. Immoral?
What about lying to a murderer who asks you which way his intended victim has gone. Immoral?

Thing is, god allows for no exceptions to lying, No qualifying his dictate against lying whatsoever. Never an "Except for" or "other than." in the whole bunch.

Leviticus 19:11
“You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another.

Psalm 59:12
......."For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips, let them be trapped in their pride. For the cursing and lies that they utter,"

Proverbs 12:22
......."Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight."

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Proverbs 19:5
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape.

Proverbs 26:28
A lying tongue hates its victims, and a flattering mouth works ruin.

Psalm 120:2
Deliver me, O Lord, from lying lips, from a deceitful tongue.

Etc.

Etc.

And they call the Bible "The Good Book."

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Thing is, god allows for no exceptions to lying ...

That may well be the case but he is also merciful; if Jesus asked his Father to forgive those that played a part in murder, I think its safe to say, he is capable of forgiving the lies of the immoral or misguided.

Biblically there is no sin (bar one) that cannot be forgiven

If God judges a lie was told without malice , by someone that either did not know better or was well intentioned then the biblical narritive supports him being willing to forgive.

Lying us always wrong but not all wrongs are equal

This however does not mean he expects his people to operate under anything less than a strictly "No lying" policy. : Lying is one of the "seven deadly sins " and the God of the bible hates it.

What is comical to me is all these references to Anne Frank as if most the lies told to bosses, tax inspectors, traffic police, judges, and partners are to protect the innocent, when we all know that the "nobel lie" is often a euphemism for protecting a certain part of one's own anatomy.

Any suggestion that the world would be a better place (and less people would die) if only less people were as honest as the bible exhorts and more lies abounded ... would be comical if it wasn't so sad.



JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

MORALS, LYING and ...BIBLICAL PROHIBITIONS

[JoeyKnothead]

Question for debate: Is lying inherently wrong? If so, why?

I have understood lying is always wrong, because:

You shall not steal nor lie, nor deceive to one another.
Lev. 19:11

The righteous hates lying, but the wicked is odious and acts shamefully.
Pro. 13:5

I notice it says "hates", and not "doesn't".

[Miles]

Thing is, god allows for no exceptions to lying ...

That may well be the case but he is also merciful; if Jesus asked his Father to forgive those that played a part in murder, I think its safe to say, he is capable of forgiving the lies of the immoral or misguided.

Biblically there us no sin (bar one) that cannot be forgiven.

So what's the message here? You can lie all you want as long as you jump through the Jesus Hoop before you die? And as I understand the Biblical god, of course he's capable of forgiving lies, but there doesn't seem to be any assurance that he'll do it.

If God judges a lie was told without malice , by someone that either did not know better , then the biblical narritive supoorts him neing willing to forgive.

That's a big "if.," and with no assured willingness to forgive IF one is reading the biblical narrative correctly. And how about those liars who do know better. "Willingness" is not the same as "will." Nope, JW, your words are not reassuring at all.

What is comical to me is all these references to Anne Frank as if most the lies told to bosses, tax inspectors, traffic police, judges, and partners are to protect the innocent, when we all know that the "nobel lie" is often a euphemism for protecting ant part of one's own anatomy.

I'm sorry that you, what, believe the Jews got what they deserved from the Germans? That Christians should have pointed out every Jew they came across? It's obvious why Anne Frank has been pointed out, and just as obvious why you don't like it. It makes a mockery of god's word because there have been plenty of excellent reasons to lie.

.

[Purple Knight]

People say we don't need a book to tell them what is right or wrong, yet here we are, debating if lying is immoral.

We clearly do need something, and we all need to be looking at that same something. One way to accomplish this, is for people to agree on what that something is.

Poor Anne Frank!

I don't like the Nazi example for a lot of reasons, but not because it's automatically invalid. If it is valid, I think it has more to do with reprehensible people who violate rights not being deserving of moral consideration, not the idea that moral consideration must account for them.

One thing to note however is that if the Nazi listens to your lie and just goes away, it's because he has trust, and he has trust because that's been built up by others not lying to him. So even assuming he gets no moral consideration, it's about you spending what others have accumulated. You could say, this is the exact situation to spend it on, and I don't think a lot of people would disagree. But if people do start disagreeing about when we should cash in some gullible dummy's trust, then perhaps it's better not to spend what others have accumulated, on yourself, or on something the person who helped accumulate that trust, would not want it spent on.

If someone has trust because others have accumulated it in them, not lying to them is just not poking a hole in a bucket somebody else filled. The bucket does not belong to the filler, but the filler put in a lot of effort to fill it.

I notice it says "hates", and not "doesn't".

The way I read that, one another means fellow Jews. Lying absolutely destroys the efficiency of an insular community, compared to one wherein people can just trust each other.

I find it weird that this issue is split precisely down the religiosity line, with religious people unanimously denouncing lies and the nonreligious unanimously saying lies are okay, for the right reason.

Maybe it's because, to reject lies in a situation like the Nazi one, you have to view morality as doctrinal or at least deontological - in other words, actions can be wrong no matter what the situation. And lies people seem to agree on, but not a lot of people would have the utilitarian chutzpah to murder baby Hitler in his crib, if either doing that, or not, were the only options.

The utilitarian way seems to be the better path, but it's Hella dangerous. Nobody knows what's right or wrong until it happens and everyone always says he was doing the right thing because reasons. Even if it's just about results, I tend to think a world where we can hold people accountable is so valuable over the one where anyone can justify anything, that maybe we declare some things doctrinally wrong simply because it's about getting that good outcome.

Without the presumption of truth, the instrument of language has no value.
- Purple Knight