How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

[Compassionist]

How do we know what is right, and what is wrong? For example, I think it is wrong to be a herbivore or a carnivore or an omnivore, or a parasite. I think all living things should be autotrophs. I think only autotrophs are good and the rest are evil. However, I am not certain that my thoughts are right. Can herbivores, carnivores, omnivores, and parasites become autotrophs at will? If so, why don't they? If they can't become autotrophs at will, is it really their fault that they are not autotrophs?

[boatsnguitars]

From reading up on it and engaging with everything offered in favor of this in this thread, I think this claim is objectively wrong.

Let's try again.

1. You are claiming that the Intentional Act of Creation (IAoC) is the magic sauce that makes morals real. You don't see how the Big Bang can create OMVs because it wasn't intentional. Is this a fair summary?

2. If Morals are Real, then they transcend what is held in the mind or understanding of a Subject. Agree?

3. If Morals are real, they - it is argued - made of "something other than" Matter. They seem to be bound by certain laws that transcend any Subjects thoughts. Correct?

4. If a Toy Maker makes a robot with Free Will and makes it moral to murder, you have argued this is moral; because the Toy Maker has used the IAoC to create the Toy, and has deemed it moral to murder. Correct?

5. Here is where I lose you: I don't know if you mean an IAoC is like making a baby (which is what parents do, thus intentionally creating a person - therefore, they'd be able to determine the morality of that child - which is literally the definition of Subjective.) Or, if you mean that the IAoC must come from unique, new, novel "stuff" that - surprise, surprise - only God can do. I assume the latter (or some version of it). Can you confirm?

6. If you mean that Morals must be made up of novel "stuff", then you can't simply declare God created this stuff - because where did he get it from? Magic? It's a big enough problem to explain how God created Matter ex nihilo, and Morals would be a similar problem. (You could argue that morals are an emergent property of Matter.... but you see that problem for you.) Can you confirm that Morals are something other than God "stuff" (the stuff God is made of) or "other stuff" (something that may or may not be unique to God)?

7. If you say, "I don't know how God did it, but I don't need to. All i need to do is argue that "if" it's possible, it explains it." Sure, just like "If the aliens made the pyramids, it explains it." It's not an explanation.

8. However, if you say "Morals are made from God stuff", then you'd have to admit God didn't create them ex nihilio, he simply "birthed" them (used existing "stuff" to make them). If you argue that this is adequate, then making babies is also adequate.

9. If you argue that God created Morals ex nihilo, then you have to explain how they aren't subjective in the sense that God creating them is really the same as God deciding what is and isn't moral.

10. In all, you haven't extracted yourself from Euthyphro's horns.

11. After all, if you say, "God could make it so that some Beings fight and kill for their survival (animals) but that others shouldn't." Then it is clear that Morals only apply to some and not other Beings. That is, they aren't objective (for example, gravity works on all creatures because it is an objective fact. The Earth is objectively round and every creature or being must adhere to this fact - they can't fly through it, or pretend it isn't round).

12. If you say "Morals are Objective" then you have to explain how the IAoC makes them objective in the sense that they transcend God, or the Maker. You've attempted to explain this in a lengthy causal chain that really just is a verbose reiteration of your claim that "God can make morals objective." You haven't explained how morals become Real even if there is a Maker of Moral values. What is the Maker making? Moral "stuff"? Moral "concepts"? Is the Moral Maker not making morals at all, but only enforcing them?

13. So, in short, you still have a Euthyprho Dilemma on your hands, you've just added detail in one part of the explanation chain. 2. You haven't defined what morals are, or how they are transferred, enforced, etc. If they are Real, then they are made of some "stuff", if they aren't real, they are subjective, or some other category.

[Bust Nak]

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[JoeyKnothead]

[boatsnguitars]

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