TS Type C evidence

Debate and discussion on the Shroud of Turin
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otseng
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TS Type C evidence

Post #1

Post by otseng »

I had posted:
otseng wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:01 am There are some claims made by shroud proponents that I have not used in my arguments as evidence as these are disputable evidence. But for completeness I'll just mention them:

- Pollen found on shroud
- Flowers on shroud
- Coin over eyes
- Sponge, nails on the shroud
- Pendant hanging on neck
- Writings on the shroud
All of these are considered to be a type C evidence according to the ShroudScience group, which is comprised of 2 dozen leading shroud researchers.
Type C refers to facts that were evidenced by some researchers but that are not universally
accepted; therefore they can help in formulating new hypotheses, they can not be used to test a new
hypothesis.
https://shroud.com/pdfs/doclist.pdf

This thread will contain details of the type C evidence.

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Re: TS Type C evidence

Post #2

Post by otseng »

Image
The late Dr. Max Frei, noted Swiss criminologist, takes sticky tape samples from the Shroud of Turin. Dr. Frei pressed the tape onto the cloth with his thumb, causing dust, pollen and other particulate matter to stick to the tape and be lifted from the fibers of the Shroud. Dr. Frei claimed he found pollen grains on the Shroud from now extinct plants indigenous to Palestine. Ray Rogers of Los Alamos Laboratories, the team member responsible for taking STURP's own tape samples, looks on as Frei works.
https://www.shroud.com/78strp6.htm

Pollen evidence is widely cited by many as evidence for the authenticity of the shroud. However, it is considered to be a type C evidence according to the ShroudScience group.
C4) Pollen grains relative to the zones of Palestine, Edessa, Constantinople and Europe were
found (Frei 1979, 1983; Danin 1999).
https://shroud.com/pdfs/doclist.pdf

Pollen study on the shroud was pioneered by Max Frei, a Swiss criminologist.
Dr MAX FREI was an internationally acclaimed criminologist, held a doctorate in Botany and was a recognized botanical expert regarding the Mediterranean flora. He founded the city of Zurich Polices Central Scientific Department in 1948 and was its director for twenty-five years. From 1952 on, he began lecturing in criminology at the Swiss Police Institute at Neuchatel and at the German Police Institute at Hiltrup. He was scientific editor of the German review Kriminalistik, was regularly consulted by police forces in Germany and Italy, as well as his native Switzerland, and in 1961 was appointed by the United Nations to become one of the senior investigators into the death of their Secretary-General Dag Hammerskjold. In his criminological work, Frei routinely used analysis of pollens on a suspects clothing, to assess whether he might or might not have been at a particular crime scene.
https://shroud3d.com/addendum/max-frei-pollen/
Swiss criminalist Max Frei-Sulzer made many contributions to the field of forensic science in his lifetime, including founding the first Swiss criminalistics laboratory, and developing the tape life method of collecting trace evidence . He is also known for debatable findings he made in two high-profile identification cases, the authenticity of the Hitler Diaries and the Shroud of Turin.

Born in 1913, Frei-Sulzer worked as a freelance criminalist for many years in Switzerland. He also taught microscopical techniques at Zurich University, and in 1950, he was asked to create the first Swiss crime laboratory, the Zurich Police Scientific Laboratory. While director of the facility, he developed the tape lift method for evidence collection. By applying a piece of sticky tape to a surface, a scientist can collect particles that can then be examined under a microscope. The tape preserves the spatial relationship of the particles and fibers. This technique was a major advance in trace analysis, and is a method still used today.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/en ... sulzer-max

In 1973, he took some tape samples off the shroud and studied the pollen.
In 1973, Frei-Sulzer served as a consultant to a commission investigating the authenticity of the famous Shroud of Turin, a cloth depicting the image of a crucified man that some believe to be the burial cloth of Jesus. Frei-Sulzer took samples from the cloth using the tape lift method, and studied the samples for two years.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/en ... sulzer-max
November 24, 1973: The Shroud is secretly examined by a new Commission of experts, brought together by Cardinal Pellegrino. On this occasion Professor Gilbert Raes takes from one edge of the Shroud's frontal end one 40x13-mm sample, also from the side-strip one 40x10-mm portion, together with one 13-mm warp thread and one 12-mm weft thread. Dr. Max Frei, Swiss criminologist, is among the other specialists present, and is allowed to take 12 samples of surface dust from the Shroud's extreme frontal end, using adhesive tape to remove these. The Shroud is returned to its casket the same evening.
https://www.shroud.com/history.htm

He found many particles from the tape samples, including pollen.
In 1973 Frei was granted permission to take some sticky-tape samples of the dust that he had noticed on the Shrouds cloth surface. He took twelve sticky-tape samples, which he studied under the microscope in his Zurich Laboratory. As Frei expected, the tapes contained microscopic debris from a lot of different sources. To give an idea we add a list
of these materials observed by him and others:

1) Power-station fly ash (FIAT factory in Turin).
2) Specks of various metals (iron, bronze, silver, goldthink of silver casket).
3) Several wire-like objects like metal shavings (confirmed on the X-rays 1978).
4) Particles of fabric, red silk, blue linen, plain cotton, plain wool, pink nylon.
5) Artists pigments, iron oxide, vermillion, madder(red), ultramarine(blue), orpiment(yellow).
6) Pollens not covered with a calcium layer (backside-pollen have this layer).
7) Mineral deposits.
https://shroud3d.com/addendum/max-frei-pollen/

Frei was a pioneer in forensic palynology (study of dust particles). During that time, there was not a database of pollen samples that we currently have. So, in order for Frei to compare the shroud pollen with, he travelled to Turkey and Israel to collect pollen samples. He found samples in Turkey and Israel were similar to pollen found on the shroud.

Frei wrote a report on his finding in Shroud Spectrum International.
I succeeded in identifying 57 different plants which have left microscopical evidence
on the Shroud (56 in the form of pollen, one in the form of typical multicellular hairs).

As a by-product of my microscopical studies, I could identify hairs of Platanus
orientalis and epidermis cells of Aloe socotrina. Probably aloes and myrrh were used as
spices in the provisional burial of the Crucified.

With regard to their geographical area and their ecological properties, the plants belong
to a few very characteristic groups:
A. DESERT PLANTS, either from sand deserts or halophytes, i.e., plants growing in soils
with a very high concentration of salt. In the lands of the Bible, many of these plants
grow around the Dead Sea and are completely missing in Italy and France. They could
not have contaminated the Shroud during the last six centuries of its known

history. To this group belong the following 16 species:
Anabasis aphylla L.
Acacia albida Del.
Artemisia Herba-alba L.*
Bassia muricata Asch.
Echinops glaberimus DC
Fagonia mollis Del.
Haloxylon persicum Bg.
Haplophyllum tuberculatum Juss.*
Oligomeris subulata Boiss.
Peganum Harmala L.*
Prosopis farcta Macbr.*
Pteranthus dichotomus Forsk.*
Reaumurea hirtella J. +Sp.
Suaeda aegyptiaca Zoh.
Tamarix nilotica Bunge
Zygophyllum dumosum Boiss.

B. PLANTS OF ROCKY HILLS AND STONY PLACES (RUINS) in Palestine and neighboring
countries (7 species).
Capparis spec.*
Gundelia turnefortii L. *
Helianthemum vesicarium Boiss.
Hyoscyamus aureus L.
Hyoscyamus reticulatus L.*
Onosma syriacum Labill.
Scabiosa prolifera L.*

Two of these groups still grow nowadays on the walls of the ancient city of Jerusalem:
Hyoscyamus aureus L. and Onosma syriacum Labill.
C. MEDITERRANEAN PLANTS (16 species).
These grow in biblical Palestine as well as in France and Italy. The contamination of the Shroud
with these plants might have occurred in any country with Mediterranean vegetation, except for
those varieties which grow only in the Eastern Basin.
Althaea officinalis L.
Anemone coronaria L.
Cedrus libanotica LK.
Cistus creticus L.
Cupressus sempervirens L.
Juniperus oxycedrus L.
Laurus nobilis L.
Paliurus spina-christi Mill.
Phyllirea angustifolia L.
Pinus halepensis L.
Pistacia lentiscus L.
Pistacia vera L.
Poterium spinosum L.
Ricinus communis L.
Ridolfia segetum Moris
Silene conoidea L.

D. PLANTS FROM ANATOLIA, mostly steppic plants (16 species). To this group of plants from
the Near East, partly with areas from Iran to the Eastern Mediterranean, belong the following
species from the Shroud:
Atraphaxis spinosa L.
Glaucium grandiflorum B. +H.
Ixolirium montanum Herb.
Linum mucronatum Bert.
Prunus spartioides Spach.
Roemeria hybrida DC.

The contamination of the Shroud with these pollens could not have happened in Europe.
Therefore these plants must be considered as strong evidence in favor of the Shroud's stay in
Edessa as stipulated by Ian Wilson and other historians.
https://shroud.com/pdfs/ssi03part3.pdf

He had died before he could publish a book on his findings.
Dr. Frei collected hundreds of pollen grains from the shroud, but he died in 1982 before he could finish examining and publishing all of his findings.
https://www.shroud.com/danin.htm
January 14, 1983: Death of Dr. Max Frei, leaving unfinished the book he was writing on his pollen findings. His estate, with all his Shroud materials, passes to his widow Gertrud and their son Ulrich.
https://www.shroud.com/history.htm

There is no dispute pollen is on the shroud.
February 16, 1986: Shroud Conference at Elizabethtown College, Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, at which some of Dr. Max Frei's pollen samples are examined by the attendees, who include Walter McCrone. McCrone almost immediately confirms observing pollen.
https://www.shroud.com/history.htm

What is disputed is if the pollen links the shroud to first century Jerusalem and medieval Turkey.

One problem is Frei sampled contemporary pollen from the East. The more accurate method would be to compare it to pollen found in sedimentary deposits dated to the period in question.
As he explained: "Normally a core is taken from some
sedimentary deposit, and by simple analysis of the pollens at different
levels, a picture can be built up of changes of flora in one region over
a given period."
https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-con ... 28/p45.pdf

Also, pollen identification is rarely at the species level, but species-group or type level.
Smithsonian botanist Richard H. Eyde (1986) observed that
the real problem with Frei's work was that he claimed to do that which was
suspect. Eyde noted that pollen identification "is not to species save in rare
cases; rather it is to this or that 'type' of [pollen] grainor to genus or
species-group."
https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-con ... 28/p45.pdf
Of his 58 plant types, Frei identified all but two at species level.
This has been roundly condemned on theoretical grounds, as even 30
years later, with better preparation methods and better microscopes,
palynologists still find it difficult to identify pollen precisely even at genus
level, preferring to classify it according to "type." (12) Uri Baruch, who
examined 31 of the slides onto which Frei had transferred his pollen for
identification, was only able to confirm four species, and even one of those
has been seriously called into question.
https://shroud.com/pdfs/n79part8.pdf

Farey notes the proportion of insect borne pollen is too high compared to wind borne pollen.
Under natural circumstances, the vast majority of any
pollen assemblage would be from wind-borne pollen, and the Frei
samples consist of a vast disproportion of insect-borne pollen.
https://shroud.com/pdfs/n79part8.pdf

Farey claims the shroud was not exposed long enough in Jerusalem to have significant pollen from that area on it.
If the Shroud is truly that of Christ, it seems unlikely that it was
exposed to the elements in Israel for very long before being hurried away
in hiding, perhaps through Turkey to Constantinople, where it may have
been sporadically exposed to the faithful before being looted by crusaders
and taken to France.

Only about 38% of
Freis pollens are from trees and shrubs, and virtually none from grasses.
Furthermore, over 10% flower in the second half of the year, which would
of course, be too late for the crucifixion and resurrection.
https://shroud.com/pdfs/n79part8.pdf

The problem with this criticism is we don't know how long the shroud was in the Jerusalem area after the resurrection. It could've potentially been many decades before the shroud was moved to Edessa.

Overall, Frei did do pioneering work with pollen and the shroud. But since he never published his findings, we don't know what is his official final conclusion.

A recent study on the pollen was done in 2015. It concluded the shroud was compatible with a Palestinian origin.
We studied by SEM-EDX analysis the pollens on the Face of the Turin Shroud. A total of ten pollen grains were found; they were photographed, characterised and analysed. Three of them (pollens p6, p7 and p10) belong to Ceratonia siliqua, the carob tree; one of them (pollen p1) belongs to Balanites aegyptiaca (the palm tree of the desert), and another one (pollen p9) belongs to Cercis siliquastrum (the Judean tree). These three plants have their geographical distributions in the Near-East; that is indicative of a Palestinian origin of the Turin Shroud. Two pollen grains (p3 and p4) belong to Myosotis ramosissima. Probably myositis flowers were deposited later on the Turin Shroud, as reverence for this venerable and symbolic object.
https://www.scirp.org/html/3-1140053_60135.htm

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Re: TS Type C evidence

Post #3

Post by tigger 2 »

The March/April 1999 edition of Biblical Archaeology Review carried a number of ... "Shroud Believers." They attacked the above articles and the researchers who wrote them. Here is Walter C. McCrones reply to their objections:


+ Blood tests -- I stand by my claim that there is no blood on the shroud. Anyone claiming there is is guilty of wishful thinking and speaking from their belief in a first-century shroud.
+ Mercury -- the presence of mercuric sulfide as the pigment vermilion (in a form invented by alchemists in about 700 A.D.) is proved microchemically, by X-ray diffraction and X-ray fluorescence. All of the seven blood-image tapes showed thousands of vermilion pigment particles dispersed on the linen fibers.
+ Iron oxide (red ochre) as image -- neither Adler nor anyone else has shown that 90 percent of the iron [present on the shroud] is bonded to cellulose and is not present as colored iron oxide. This ludicrous statement is an out-and-out misrepresentation of the facts. Anyone making such a statement [as one of the letter writers attributed to Alan Adler] is either not a microscopist or is incompetent or lying. The explanation of the shroud image as due to dehydrative oxidation of the cellulose [also attributed to Adler] is balderdash - absolutely impossible; 99 percent of the iron on the shroud is readily visible to a microscopist as micron-sized red particles bound to the linen with a dried gelatin paint medium.
+ Pollen -- Max Frei has been shown to have misled all of us with his report of 54 different species of pollen, all from the Near East, on the shroud.# There were very few pollen grains on his tapes (I examined them very carefully).

McCrone had previously published a book which included this:

"Based on the complete absence of any reference to the shroud before 1356, Bishop Henri of Poitierss statement that he knew the artist, the 14th century painting style and my test results, I concluded in two papers published in 1980 that the shroud was painted in 1355 ("to give the paint a year to dry"). A third paper in 1981 confirmed these results with X-ray diffraction, scanning electron microscopy and energy dispersive X-ray determination of the elements present (iron, mercury and sulfur) in the two paints. Eight years after my published results, the carbon-dating results were reported as 1325 [plus or minus 65 years] - thus confirming my date of 1355. "

An expert in microanalysis and painting authentication, Walter C. McCrone is director emeritus of the McCrone Research Institute in Chicago, Illinois.

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Re: TS Type C evidence

Post #4

Post by otseng »

[Replying to tigger 2 in post #3]

For reference, the original article and responses, including McCrone's, is at:
https://www.shroud.com/bar.htm

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Re: TS Type C evidence

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Post by otseng »

Image
Alan and Mary Whanger
https://shroud3d.com/research-on-the-3d ... oam-danin/

Another type C claim is imprints of flowers are found on the shroud.
C26) A crown of thorns with stalks and flowers is visible on the TS (Whanger 2000).
https://shroud.com/pdfs/doclist.pdf

Alan Whanger is the primary person claiming this.
Dr. Alan Whanger, the Duke University psychiatry professor who developed the intriguing
polarized overlay method of comparing the Shroud image with early Byzantine icons of the
Shroud face, has recently announced findings from a surprising new area of research. He
claims that in addition to the Christ body imprint on the Shroud he can discern the images of
hundreds of flowers that seem to have been placed in bunches around the body. Of these he
sees "reasonably clear" images of 28 different flowers, small bushes and thorns, all of which
can be found within a 15 mile radius of Jerusalem, but are mostly not to be found in Europe.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n24part7.pdf

Whanger had asked for assistance from botanist Dr. Avinoam Danin. He also claims flowers can be seen on the shroud.
In 1995, Israeli botanist and expert on the plant life of Israel, Dr. Avinoam
Danin, a Professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, was asked by Dr.
Alan Whanger, Professor Emeritus at Duke University in North Carolina, to
confirm floral images which Alan and his wife Mary had noted on Shroud
photographs. They were later joined by Dr. Uri Baruch of the Israel
Antiquities Authority, a palynologist and expert on Israels pollen.
https://www.shroud.com/iannone.pdf

Danin published several articles on his findings:
Ten years previously, in 1985, Dr. Whanger was looking at a photograph of the shroud taken in 1931 when he noticed the faint outline of a flower later identified as the inflorescence of the crown chrysanthemum (Chrysanthemum coronarium). Intrigued, the Whangers, amateur photographers, spent thousands of subsequent hours looking at photographs that had been specially enhanced so that the faint images stood out more clearly. They discovered hundreds of flowers, mostly in the vicinity of the figures head. Comparing the flowers they found with drawings in Michael Zohary and Naomi Feinbruns Flora Palaestina, they succeeded in identifying twenty-eight species of plants.

During the Whangers stay in Israel in September 1995, I recognized images of the crown chrysanthemum and the rock rose (Cistus creticus) in their photographs, and became convinced that the material was authentic and that the Whangers findings were valid.
https://www.shroud.com/danin.htm
Images of opened flowers, flowering buds, inflorescences, leaves, spiny bracts, stems, and
fruits have been observed on photos of the Shroud and on the Shroud itself. An example
of an inflorescence of a plant from the Asteraceae (Compositae), best fitting in size and
morphology to that of Chrysanthemum coronarium, is presented in Fig. 1. Hundreds of
additional flowers and inflorescences were discovered on the enhanced photos of the
Shroud.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/daninx.pdf

I'm not able to find any detailed information on their findings, particularly images that they claim to have found. They did publish a book, Flora of the Shroud of Turin, in 1999. I found one used copy on Amazon, but it's $650!.


Danin passed away in 2015.
Noted Israeli botanist Avinoam Danin passed away on December 12, 2015, at the age of 76.
https://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-arc ... ew/42/3/16

Whanger passed away in 2017.
Alan D. Whanger, 87, of Durham, North Carolina, died at Duke University Medical Center on October 21, following a short illness.
https://www.cremnc.com/memsol.cgi?user_id=2028162

Joe Marino has compiled a list of literature from both the skeptic and authentic sides on botany and the shroud:
https://www.academia.edu/48921695/The_B ... bliography

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Re: TS Type C evidence

Post #6

Post by otseng »

Image
https://www.theholyshroud.net/Coins.htm
C10) There is the image of an identified coin (dilepton lituus) on the right eye (Filas 1982; Haralick 1983;
Barbesino 1997) .
C11) There is an image of another identifiable coin (Pilate lepton simpulum) over the left eye
(Balossino 1997; Barbesino 1997).
https://shroud.com/pdfs/doclist.pdf
The two suspected coins placed on the eyes are believed to be Pilate coins, small bronze coins issued AD 30 or 31. Earlier attempts to identify the right eye coin seemed to reveal the letters UCAI and a lituus (the auger wand with a top end like a shepherd's crook) at the center. All available Pilate coins with the lituus show the name of the Roman emperor at the time, Tiberius Caesar in Greek letters, TIBEPIOY KAICAPOC where the C, P and Y should sound like our S,R, and U respectively. It was thought that UCAI is an altered or even a mis-spelled form of Y KAI. A coin in the collection of Fr. Filas in Layola University in Chicago seemed to show the same letters. Later on, the coin on the left eye was conjectured to be a Julia coin (also issued by Pilate) with a simpulum (like a ladle) at the center.
https://www.theholyshroud.net/Coins.htm

Stephen Jones has a long write-up on the coins:
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... ce-is.html

Comment on the coins over eyes from Barrie Schwortz:
Around 1980, the late Fr. Francis Filas, of Loyola University in Chicago, claimed to have found a coin image on one of the eyes of the Shroud. Filas declared he could read the inscription on the coin and subsequently identified it as a Roman "lepton", a small coin minted during the early first century. His theory was that the date on the coin proved the Shroud's age. Although his work was widely publicized and seemed quite convincing, many scientists remained skeptical of his conclusions.

In recent years, Dr. Alan Whanger and his research team claimed to have discovered additional images on the Shroud, including various flowers, a spear tip and other items. And again, many in the scientific community remain skeptical.

My personal opinion, based on my photographic experience and my close examination of the Shroud itself, is that the weave of the cloth is far too coarse to resolve the rather subtle and very tiny inscription on a dime sized ancient coin. I believe the fibers are much too large to resolve such fine detail. Also, Filas found these coin "images" on the Shroud using the 1933 Enrie photographs. He personally mentioned to me that he could not achieve the same results with the 1978 photographs. Unfortunately, the 1933 photographs have been copied and recopied multiple times and I believe the "images" he discovered are artifacts of clumped photographic grain, caused by the recopying and enhancement of grain structure from earlier generation photographs. This grain clumping is very common on high contrast or contrast enhanced films when copied over multiple generations.

Filas' research described a large number of points of congruence between the coin image he found on the Shroud and the actual coin. I believe one would get matching points of congruence for practically anything one looked for, since a highly magnified random sampling of clumped grain structure would have the same effect as a sky full of clouds: you could see whatever you wish to see, and no two people would necessarily see the same thing. Statistically, superimposing one random image over another yields a minimum of 50% congruence. At that point, one would have to reset the baseline to zero, and then, only significant congruence beyond that would be statistically viable.

Francis Filas and I were friends and had many discussions on the subject. I was never able to see what he was trying to point out to me in his photographs, much to his frustration. What he saw as inscriptions, I saw as random shapes and noise. Such is the subjective nature of image analysis. For these reasons however, I cannot accept these coin "inscriptions" as viable evidence of a first century Shroud "date". In fact, the majority of all the imaging scientists who have directly and indirectly studied the Shroud in the last 25 years are skeptical of the multitude of secondary images continuously being "discovered" on the Shroud.

I do not argue that there appears to be something on the eyes of the man of the Shroud, and it may well be coins or potshards, since they were used in some first century burial rituals, but I do not believe we can resolve coin inscriptions. My own efforts at contrast enhancing and enlarging the 4" x 5" photographic negatives I made of the Shroud in 1978 failed to yield any similar results. As for other images on the Shroud, it is quite possible that these exist, but they are far more subtle than the Shroud image itself and may be the result of a different image formation mechanism. I believe that future research on the Shroud should include the use of the new, sophisticated imaging technologies that were not available in 1978. Perhaps then the question of these secondary images, as well as the coin images, can be verified or put to rest.
https://www.shroud.com/faq.htm#3

Joe Marino has compiled a list of arguments from both sides on the issue. His provides some background into the claim:
Three members of the STURP team wrote an article before they went to Italy, proposing there
could be coins on the eyes of the man in the Shroud. A Jesuit priest, the late Fr. Francis Filas,
took up the idea and believed he could identify the coin over the right eye as being a coin minted
in AD 29-32, known as a "lepton," (with an astrologers staff called a lituus and inscription of the
emperor Tiberius Caesar in Greek letters ), by none other than Pontius Pilate, who sentenced
Jesus to death. Most scholars believe that Jesus was crucified in either AD 30 or 33. Filas
believed he could see the letters "UCAI," but the problem was that the letters should have been
"UKAI." One early critic wrote, "This is the only, and correct, writing." Surprisingly, multiple
Pilate lepton coins with a misspelled "C" instead of a "K" later surfaced! Although STURP
ended up discounting Filas research, other researchers started looking into the question,
including the late physician Dr. Alan Whanger, and Prof. Robert Haralick (while he was at the
Spatial Data Analysis Laboratory at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in
1Blacksburg, VA). Dr. Whanger believed he was able to identify a Julia lepton, also minted by
Pilate in honor of Tiberius mother Julia) over the left eye of the man in the Shroud. Another
important question was whether Jews in ancient times used coins in burials. Research has also
continued to the present day.[/qoute]
https://www.academia.edu/49146762/Evalu ... bliography

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