Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.
For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?
A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion
Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:
P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)
At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.
A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).
Where's God?
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Where's God?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Where's God?
Post #221[Replying to POI in post #216
That's more of an indication of a problem with the Bible, not necessarily with God.Can you blame me for loosing my 30+ years of faith, being that God never did what the Bible says He would do?
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Re: Where's God?
Post #222But we are talking about the god of the Bible, aren't we? If there is a problem with the Bible, don't we have a problem (and we do have a problem) with the god described in the Bible?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:01 pm [Replying to POI in post #216
That's more of an indication of a problem with the Bible, not necessarily with God.Can you blame me for loosing my 30+ years of faith, being that God never did what the Bible says He would do?
Ok, the discussion about a god not specific to any particular religion is a diferent one, but if we doubt the Bible and the religions and gods based on it, which religion can we not have doubts about?
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Re: Where's God?
Post #223[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #222
We can question all of them, but we have to question each of them in its own right and on its own merits.Ok, the discussion about a god not specific to any particular religion is a diferent one, but if we doubt the Bible and the religions and gods based on it, which religion can we not have doubts about?
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Re: Where's God?
Post #224Isn't the Bible directed by God?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:01 pm [Replying to POI in post #216
That's more of an indication of a problem with the Bible, not necessarily with God.Can you blame me for loosing my 30+ years of faith, being that God never did what the Bible says He would do?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Where's God?
Post #225Thank you. Yes. We have to examine them on their own merits. Thus, Christianity apparently has factual/historical support. Islam a close second as few people would argue that Muhammad never existed, and Buddhism perhaps no 3. This is the Real debate, not whether cosmic origins or Abiogenesis are evidence for a god, because that does not get you any particular religion, which is all that - in a practical sense - matters.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:30 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #222
We can question all of them, but we have to question each of them in its own right and on its own merits.Ok, the discussion about a god not specific to any particular religion is a different one, but if we doubt the Bible and the religions and gods based on it, which religion can we not have doubts about?
It is why, though I debate these other apologetics, the only one that matters is Bible credibility, specifically the gospels and particularly the resurrection -accounts, because Christianity stands or falls on that, and if it falls (and it does) Christianity is done and dusted and none of the other debates even matter.
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Re: Where's God?
Post #226That's the Bible's claim.POI wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:02 pmIsn't the Bible directed by God?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:01 pm [Replying to POI in post #216
That's more of an indication of a problem with the Bible, not necessarily with God.Can you blame me for loosing my 30+ years of faith, being that God never did what the Bible says He would do?
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Re: Where's God?
Post #227Placing this back on top:
P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)
At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.
A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).
Is my above current conclusion rational? If not, why not?
P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)
At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.
A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).
Is my above current conclusion rational? If not, why not?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
- POI
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- Posts: 3634
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Re: Where's God?
Post #228Bump:
Placing this back on top:
P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)
At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.
A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).
Is my above current conclusion rational? If not, why not?
Placing this back on top:
P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)
At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.
A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).
Is my above current conclusion rational? If not, why not?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Where's God?
Post #229Since our pal has not come back I reckon we can say the case is sound - that 'god' doesn't matter but only the God of a particular religion, which is to say the Christian one and that means the Bible is the subject of debate, not theist abstracts. Now the God is under parameters. His actions, orders, directives, morals and promises are under scrutiny. Christians know that prayer doesn't work. They don';t know, but I'll remind them that they judge God using human morals (or they wouldn't need excuses). They know that science and logic rebuts the Bible , which is why so many dismiss logic and decry science (unless it suits them) and they know the problem of evil really means the world looks like it would if there was no god there.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:10 pmThank you. Yes. We have to examine them on their own merits. Thus, Christianity apparently has factual/historical support. Islam a close second as few people would argue that Muhammad never existed, and Buddhism perhaps no 3. This is the Real debate, not whether cosmic origins or Abiogenesis are evidence for a god, because that does not get you any particular religion, which is all that - in a practical sense - matters.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:30 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #222
We can question all of them, but we have to question each of them in its own right and on its own merits.Ok, the discussion about a god not specific to any particular religion is a different one, but if we doubt the Bible and the religions and gods based on it, which religion can we not have doubts about?
It is why, though I debate these other apologetics, the only one that matters is Bible credibility, specifically the gospels and particularly the resurrection -accounts, because Christianity stands or falls on that, and if it falls (and it does) Christianity is done and dusted and none of the other debates even matter.
We have heard all the apologetics, but it has no case. It is not 'the evidence shows a god', it is more ok the evidence rather shows no god, but maybe we are seeing it wrong'. What they call 'evidence' is really denial of the evidence.
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Re: Where's God?
Post #230All great points. Thus far, the only one to even try to challenge my (6) premises was AquinaforGod, in P6 alone. But I think he soon realized that this one too was sound. All and all, all theists have bailed. Which is why I still content that the 'divine hiddenness' topic clearly goes after the Christian god the best, to demonstrate it's unlikeliness. A close second would be prayer --> (http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=41082).TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:43 pmSince our pal has not come back I reckon we can say the case is sound - that 'god' doesn't matter but only the God of a particular religion, which is to say the Christian one and that means the Bible is the subject of debate, not theist abstracts. Now the God is under parameters. His actions, orders, directives, morals and promises are under scrutiny. Christians know that prayer doesn't work. They don';t know, but I'll remind them that they judge God using human morals (or they wouldn't need excuses). They know that science and logic rebuts the Bible , which is why so many dismiss logic and decry science (unless it suits them) and they know the problem of evil really means the world looks like it would if there was no god there.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:10 pmThank you. Yes. We have to examine them on their own merits. Thus, Christianity apparently has factual/historical support. Islam a close second as few people would argue that Muhammad never existed, and Buddhism perhaps no 3. This is the Real debate, not whether cosmic origins or Abiogenesis are evidence for a god, because that does not get you any particular religion, which is all that - in a practical sense - matters.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:30 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #222
We can question all of them, but we have to question each of them in its own right and on its own merits.Ok, the discussion about a god not specific to any particular religion is a different one, but if we doubt the Bible and the religions and gods based on it, which religion can we not have doubts about?
It is why, though I debate these other apologetics, the only one that matters is Bible credibility, specifically the gospels and particularly the resurrection -accounts, because Christianity stands or falls on that, and if it falls (and it does) Christianity is done and dusted and none of the other debates even matter.
We have heard all the apologetics, but it has no case. It is not 'the evidence shows a god', it is more ok the evidence rather shows no god, but maybe we are seeing it wrong'. What they call 'evidence' is really denial of the evidence.
I will still periodically update this topic, but do not expect much at all, from the Christian populous
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."