Why All the Pageantry?

[POI]

If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God.

Why clone himself, send that human to earth, and have this god-clone be martyred/murdered to atone for human sin (like a sheep) -- only to have this martyred/murdered clone almost immediately ascend back up to heaven -- (a place of perfect bliss anyways)? Seems like a lot of unnecessary-ness. It also does not really seem like an "ultimate sacrifice" anyhow.

For Debate:

(again) If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God. If no one 'deserves' God's true grace anyways, then just forgive all. What's with all the extra pageantry?

[POI]

Your provided scenario is apples and oranges to what the Christian god has apparently done anyways. Let's explore below...

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Justice is still important.

Your answer is somewhat vague and/or cryptic. Can you please shed a little more light on what you mean exactly, before I issue an answer.

If someone murdered your family and the matter went to court and the judge forgave them. That judge would not be just, he would be evil.

That sense of justice is here on planet earth though. Under Christian justice, all are sinners. No sin is good. This is why he apparently sent Jesus to "atone" for all human sin, by way of apparent 'sacrifice'. And now us humans must instead still grovel to this invisible Jesus, who almost immediately ascended up to a place of eternal bliss, which really is no sacrifice anyways. God could have just skipped this step, or even applied the method you suggested instead. Just forgive all, or, hold everyone accountable in court. But instead, he sent his son for a 'blood sacrifice', which really was neither a sacrifice at all, and requires all to still repent anyways (but now to Jesus instead of his daddy)? Why all the pageantry? He is the rule maker, He could setup any system he likes.

God cannot simply forgive everyone. It would make God unjust.

Hmmm..... But aren't all sinners? No one goes to Heaven then?

how would heaven be heaven?

If Heaven is a sinless place, this means all can go, since no one is sinless prior to Heaven anyways, right?.?.?.? What would make any human, with freewill, no longer sin in Heaven, when they were unable to not sin while on earth?

[POI]

Why clone himself, send that human to earth,

No version of orthodox Christianity says that God cloned himself.

Kool. I guess this then means that God and Jesus's opinions differ?

Technically there not a single “Christian” answer to this question.

I'm merely searching for the right answer. My hypothesis is that "substitutional atonement" was not a new concept, and the Bible writers stole this existing concept from ideas already floating around.

Christianity teaches that by his death and resurrection Jesus made a way for our sins to be forgiven and for us to have a right relationship with God. The mechanics of that are not explained.

Thus, we are expected to just accept and believe in it, without explanation.

I can give you my understanding, which is this: Mercy requires sacrifice.

Why does mercy require sacrifice? And if so, HOW much sacrifice?

Is there really much of a "sacrifice" anyways though, in this given scenario?

This is inherent in mercy. There is no way for anyone to offer mercy without paying a cost. If my actions do not cause you any harm, then you cannot offer me mercy.

Yet we cannot harm God. Nothing we do will cost God anything, just like nothing we do will benefit God in any way.

If we cannot harm God, then he can just apply mercy.

Therefore, since God wanted to offer us mercy He had to find a way bear the cost of mercy. To do that God became a man. He took on the form of a servant. He abandoned perfect bliss, praise and authority to live the ups and downs of human life. He suffered daily indignities and pain, and was finally executed in most horrible fashion ever devised. This action was the cost of mercy. Without it, mercy would be meaningless since, without Christ’s death, mercy would have cost God nothing.

As I said, this is only my understanding. All the Bible says is that when we put our faith in Christ our sins are forgiven and we have abundant life. How that works is left to our imaginations.

Even IF this idea were true, it's still greatly flawed. Only the ones which grovel correctly to Jesus can be saved. Infants, people born without ever hearing of Jesus, etc, are all still not forgiven -- (without any free will intent of their own to rebel).

[POI]

...
No, I'm talking about the Bible God......

Why are you then making claims that are not from the Bible?

All of the following are from the Bible. I even provided Bible Verse(s) in my response. I'll cut/paste all the parts you ignored:

1) It's not really a sacrifice at all, if you are going right back to a place of perfect bliss anyways, right?

2) The ones that do not follow, through faith, remain condemned -- (Ala Mark 16:15-16).

3) Since God is the rule maker, he could set up any rule system he wants. Just pardon all, as he deems all humans less-than-perfect anyways. He answers to no one. And yet, God instead decided to setup this type of system. Again, why all the pageantry? Just forgive all since all fall short, according to him, anyways.

[The Tanager]

If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God. If no one 'deserves' God's true grace anyways, then just forgive all. What's with all the extra pageantry?

I echo the point that there is a difference between Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection fixing things and the mechanics of how that happened. There are various theories that aren’t mutually exclusive, focusing on various aspects. Here is one way to think about it:

It’s not just about forgiving, but transforming us into people who love well. We’ve tried to do things in our own wisdom and it creates a mess. We need to realize this and the damage we’ve caused, realizing we are on the wrong track and want to start over. This requires a surrendering of our self, unlearning the damaging ways we’ve become accustomed to (and often try to justify), in a sense, killing a part of yourself. This is what Christians call repentance. The catch is that we can’t do this on our own. We can’t just have the slate cleaned and then do better next time as we lean back on our own wisdom. The problem is only a perfect person could repent perfectly and he wouldn’t need to do so.

But, if God helped us, we could do it. We need God to lend us His reasoning powers so that we will reason better. We need God to put some of His love into us so that we will love better. But this repentance, surrendering, unlearning is something that God, in His own nature, can’t do at all. Thus, the incarnation. God becomes human, combining in Jesus both a human nature that can surrender and die and God’s nature which can act perfectly, perfecting human nature from birth through to death.

That is one way to look at what Christianity talks of being shared with us, for those who want a share in Christ. The only belief one must have is that the help we need is found in Jesus. We share in that actual, perfect human nature which couldn’t be if God did not incarnate. This not only is about forgiving us, but transforming us while maintaining our free will.

[The Tanager]

I also wonder why we're expected to forgive everyone who harms us, as if that's the one thing we can control. Randy can't control whether or not he bricks me in the face, but I'm expected to control myself and not hit him back... why? If imperfection is an excuse for Randy, then why ought I to be any different?

I'm not a Vulcan. If people harm me, I'm going to have emotions, not all of them good. The idea that we can be forgiven for everything except that doesn't really pass the smell test. The idea that I can hit him first and it basically doesn't matter but the same exact act offends God if and only if it was provoked... I... just don't even.

Why do you think the Bible is saying that Randy can’t control that and that this is the reason not to hit him back?

[TRANSPONDER]

If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God. If no one 'deserves' God's true grace anyways, then just forgive all. What's with all the extra pageantry?

I echo the point that there is a difference between Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection fixing things and the mechanics of how that happened. There are various theories that aren’t mutually exclusive, focusing on various aspects. Here is one way to think about it:

It’s not just about forgiving, but transforming us into people who love well. We’ve tried to do things in our own wisdom and it creates a mess. We need to realize this and the damage we’ve caused, realizing we are on the wrong track and want to start over. This requires a surrendering of our self, unlearning the damaging ways we’ve become accustomed to (and often try to justify), in a sense, killing a part of yourself. This is what Christians call repentance. The catch is that we can’t do this on our own. We can’t just have the slate cleaned and then do better next time as we lean back on our own wisdom. The problem is only a perfect person could repent perfectly and he wouldn’t need to do so.

But, if God helped us, we could do it. We need God to lend us His reasoning powers so that we will reason better. We need God to put some of His love into us so that we will love better. But this repentance, surrendering, unlearning is something that God, in His own nature, can’t do at all. Thus, the incarnation. God becomes human, combining in Jesus both a human nature that can surrender and die and God’s nature which can act perfectly, perfecting human nature from birth through to death.

That is one way to look at what Christianity talks of being shared with us, for those who want a share in Christ. The only belief one must have is that the help we need is found in Jesus. We share in that actual, perfect human nature which couldn’t be if God did not incarnate. This not only is about forgiving us, but transforming us while maintaining our free will.

I thank you, no. In fact we have made progress, despite problems. Life expectancy is up (with the problems that causes), health is up (with the problems that causes) and quality if life is up (with the problems that causes) and technology is up (with the problems that causes) public emancipation is up (with the problems that causes), and wars are actually less, despite them being individually more explosive than they were.

In fact, the less religion we have the better life is for us, so, no; turning to religion is not what I see as the answer, but a bit more critical thinking and less superstition.

You are free to wag Jesus about as the answer to all our problems, but I earnestly suggest to the beans of humanity that it it is absolutely not the answer to our problems, especially in the West and especially now, and the less Christianity we have intruding into society the better for us all.

You'll disagree, but let me suggest this as a standing response should you ever propose Jesus as a cure - all panacea to all human ills.

[POI]

If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God. If no one 'deserves' God's true grace anyways, then just forgive all. What's with all the extra pageantry?

I echo the point that there is a difference between Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection fixing things and the mechanics of how that happened. There are various theories that aren’t mutually exclusive, focusing on various aspects. Here is one way to think about it:

You too are not sure of why all the pageantry?

It’s not just about forgiving, but transforming us into people who love well.

Noted.

We’ve tried to do things in our own wisdom and it creates a mess. We need to realize this and the damage we’ve caused, realizing we are on the wrong track and want to start over.

Jesus's ways are always the best way in every instruction he provided? We cannot do it without the help of Jesus?

This requires a surrendering of our self, unlearning the damaging ways we’ve become accustomed to (and often try to justify), in a sense, killing a part of yourself. This is what Christians call repentance. The catch is that we can’t do this on our own. We can’t just have the slate cleaned and then do better next time as we lean back on our own wisdom. The problem is only a perfect person could repent perfectly and he wouldn’t need to do so.

Nah. God could just forgive us. Repentance means little as we are perpetual sinners. We will sin again. Remember, he deems all of us sinners anyways. He must then extend his grace to all humans, not just some. Now, under the Christian flag, we instead sometimes grovel to Jesus instead of his dad. Adding Jesus to the equation is an unnecessary step. We merely "repent" to Jesus instead of God now.

But, if God helped us, we could do it. We need God to lend us His reasoning powers so that we will reason better. We need God to put some of His love into us so that we will love better. But this repentance, surrendering, unlearning is something that God, in His own nature, can’t do at all. Thus, the incarnation. God becomes human, combining in Jesus both a human nature that can surrender and die and God’s nature which can act perfectly, perfecting human nature from birth through to death.

Why can't God just forgive all? He's God. As another said, we are expected to turn the other cheek, and we are only mere humans. Can't God do the same?

That is one way to look at what Christianity talks of being shared with us, for those who want a share in Christ. The only belief one must have is that the help we need is found in Jesus. We share in that actual, perfect human nature which couldn’t be if God did not incarnate. This not only is about forgiving us, but transforming us while maintaining our free will.

I'd reckon if you always followed Jesus's teaching, as instructed in the Bible, your life might be worse off. This is likely why you pick and choose. Which means you really do not need Jesus at all.

[The Tanager]

Jesus's ways are always the best way in every instruction he provided? We cannot do it without the help of Jesus?

Correct, that is the Christian claim, which you are trying to show is just pageantry. If you think Jesus' ways can be shown to not be the best way or that we can repent perfectly without Jesus, then give an argument in support of that.

If you think that is shifting the burden, it's not. I'm carrying my burden in this discussion since you assumed the Christian message in order to raise your critique of it being pageantry. My responses must then also assume the Christian message.

Nah. God could just forgive us. Repentance means little as we are perpetual sinners. We will sin again. Remember, he deems all of us sinners anyways. He must then extend his grace to all humans, not just some. Now, under the Christian flag, we instead sometimes grovel to Jesus instead of his dad. Adding Jesus to the equation is an unnecessary step. We merely "repent" to Jesus instead of God now.

What do you understand “repentance” and "God's forgiveness" to be? They are two sides of the same coin. Repentance is not something separate from coming back to God that God could let us off if He wanted to; it is a description of what going back to Him is like. If you are asking God to forgive and take us back without repentance, then you are expecting Him to take us back without us actually going back. That’s obviously illogical.

It's also a clear misunderstanding to say this whole “we’re just changing who we repent to”. Christianity clearly teaches that Jesus is God and that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is the way God brings us back.

And, yes, we still sin; we have a lot to unlearn and rewire. God does extend this offer of grace to everyone. We have a choice to accept it or not.

Why can't God just forgive all? He's God. As another said, we are expected to turn the other cheek, and we are only mere humans. Can't God do the same?

We don’t change their natures without overriding their free will, though, so the point fails there. That, as I said, is what God must do, so, no, God can’t do the same thing and accomplish that; to do so would be clearly illogical.

I'd reckon if you always followed Jesus's teaching, as instructed in the Bible, your life might be worse off. This is likely why you pick and choose. Which means you really do not need Jesus at all.

Okay, but your reckoning and likelihoods may be off. Since you don’t show that reckoning, I can’t analyze it. Feel free to share it, if you want to back this opinion up, though.

[Purple Knight]

I also wonder why we're expected to forgive everyone who harms us, as if that's the one thing we can control. Randy can't control whether or not he bricks me in the face, but I'm expected to control myself and not hit him back... why? If imperfection is an excuse for Randy, then why ought I to be any different?

I'm not a Vulcan. If people harm me, I'm going to have emotions, not all of them good. The idea that we can be forgiven for everything except that doesn't really pass the smell test. The idea that I can hit him first and it basically doesn't matter but the same exact act offends God if and only if it was provoked... I... just don't even.

Why do you think the Bible is saying that Randy can’t control that and that this is the reason not to hit him back?

The idea that we all sin and therefore must always forgive - to me - reduces to that. If Randy hits me, I have to forgive him because (I admit I'm adding this, but it's the only way it makes sense) he can't control his emotions. He's a human and he has a sinful nature and sometimes he's just going to lose control and hit me. But if, instead of letting it go, I demand recompense (or just take the recompense by hitting him back) then because I don't forgive Randy, God won't forgive me and I'm going to Hell.

Maybe I'm a human too, I've got a sinful nature, and sometimes I'm just going to fail to forgive people, just like Randy failed to control himself.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #20]

Why isn't it just?