The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[TRANSPONDER]

Perhaps, but there ought tobe evidence of a large enslaved population of Hebrews in Egypt and some indication of a sudden appearance of a conquering nation of Hebrews and an option (free of Egyptian imperial control) for them to do so, but there really isn't. So the problem is not just No evidence For, but all the evidence is against.

Maybe the greatest evidence is the unfinished structures and the decline of Egyptian empire.

Apart from some unfinished tombs , I can't think of any unfinished Pharonic structures, can you? But the decline of Egypt (which happened) was following the Bronze age collapse, and it was worse for other regimes. Egypt at least survived. But the real clincher is that it didn't happen until after the first few Ramessids and by then, Merneptah's stele says the Israelites were already on Canaan, and apparently taking advantage of the collapse to expand their territory. So, creditable try at fiddling history to fit the Bible, but it doesn't. Instead it shows that the Exodus is not historically credible.

[POI]

...This claim would leave behind evidence. Likely a lot of evidence...

Sorry, I don't think that is true. There is simply no reason to assume there would remain lot of evidence for the event.

A little birdie told me you do not watch videos. However, in THIS case, you might want to make an exception. This is why I brought up the Exodus specifically. Please watch the video in post 12.

I don't think it is worth watching, sorry. If you think there is some good point, please write it here shortly as one example.

I think you are afraid to watch it. It makes many points. But pictures are worth a thousand words. And there are many pictures. I do not want to "text-wall" you.

[1213]

Apart from some unfinished tombs , I can't think of any unfinished Pharonic structures, can you? But the decline of Egypt (which happened) was following the Bronze age collapse, and it was worse for other regimes. Egypt at least survived. But the real clincher is that it didn't happen until after the first few Ramessids and by then, Merneptah's stele says the Israelites were already on Canaan, and apparently taking advantage of the collapse to expand their territory. So, creditable try at fiddling history to fit the Bible, but it doesn't. Instead it shows that the Exodus is not historically credible.

But why assume your history is correct?

[TRANSPONDER]

Because there had been hundreds of years of records and discussion, from the Ptolemaic king - lists to debates about chronology. We know who was the son of whom and which pharaoh followed which. We know what kings they wrote to or went to war with and we have objects showing their influence or control. agreed, it wasn't as obvious as Genesis being wrong and Exodus looked credible for a long while. Even now there is still argument for it. But unless one does (yet again) science - denial, there are increasingly good reasons to question the Exodus, and all the believers can do is fiddle the evidence to try to fit the Bile and then deny it when it doesn't.

But again it seems that you still think it's having to get you to admit something in the Bible is wrong (which you won't do even if it claims there was daylight before the sun was made) when it is - as one apologists argued 'cumulative evidence'. The more evidence there is that the Bible -claims don't stack up and the more the Bible apologists have to dismiss and deny the evidence, the more the doubts and questions stack up for others, if not for you.

[POI]

Great news! The Tanager has maybe agreed to participate in this topic. I think it first depends on the answer to one of the OP questions (i.e.):

If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

If The Tanager answers "it does not matter", then maybe we will receive no participation, as the veracity of this very claim becomes a moot point to his overall belief system anyways.

But for now, we'll assume that the falsification of this very large claim would redirect his Christian belief system in some capacity. As I told him, it would be best to refute the video presented in post 12. Rather than him watching it, he asked that I sum up the video's parts. Fair enough:



- Egyptians were meticulous record keepers, but no mention of keeping Israelite slaves, no plagues, no Moses, or no Exodus?
- Thousands of artifacts, preserved by the hot and dry desert, but nothing related to the slaves which inhabited this area for hundreds of years -- (they left no signs at all)?
- No mass graves/bones with Israeli DNA?
- Any path taken, from Egypt to "Canaan", shows no signs of a 40 year migration, where thousands would have died over the course of 40 years?
- Both Jewish and Egyptian archeologists concluded, after years of research, that there exist no findings for a Jewish slave populous during this era?
- During this era, Egypt stretched to what is currently modern-day Turkey. Their 40-year migration to "Canaan" would have landed them into more Egypt?
- Millions wandered this path for 40 years, while others did it in under 2 weeks?
- Millions more remained in Egypt and still no trace of their existence?
- The Pharaohs tried to wipe out history of opposing singular gods and singular mothers and failed. How could they wipe out the existence of millions who inhabited the same land for centuries?
- Who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible? Likely not Moses, being he recorded his own death and stated he was the most humble man on the planet? No, the person who wrote the book is referring to a town of Dan, which was the modern name, not associated with the time 'Moses' would have been alive.
- Why follow a book with little/no evidence, with evidence against it?

I advise you watch the video....

[1213]

...But unless one does (yet again) science - denial, there are increasingly good reasons to question the Exodus, and all the believers can do is fiddle the evidence to try to fit the Bile and then deny it when it doesn't.

But again it seems that you still think it's having to get you to admit something in the Bible is wrong (which you won't do even if it claims there was daylight before the sun was made) ....

Sorry, your opinions just are not that good that I could accept them as truth, without any good reasons.

[TRANSPONDER]

...But unless one does (yet again) science - denial, there are increasingly good reasons to question the Exodus, and all the believers can do is fiddle the evidence to try to fit the Bile and then deny it when it doesn't.

But again it seems that you still think it's having to get you to admit something in the Bible is wrong (which you won't do even if it claims there was daylight before the sun was made) ....

Sorry, your opinions just are not that good that I could accept them as truth, without any good reasons.

Ok, you dismiss everything as usual. As I've said before now, it doesn't matter what you thik or even what I think, but what the evidence says. And it says there are almost no reasons to credit the Biblical story (again, otseng made the best case anyone could) and a few good reasons to doubt it, even aside from the miracles and acts of God. And people will see that - IF they see it, which is the problem- getting the alternative to the well -funded and marketed Biblical propaganda out to the public. Your denial is irrelevant, your case is relevant, but I can't see that you have one.

[The Tanager]

[POI]

[1213]

...what the evidence says....

And it seems the evidence says exactly what you want to hear. If someone else listens the evidence, it may be silent or speak entirely different story.