Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[TRANSPONDER]

I do not think you have read my question. Please re-read the part in bold red. The point being there exists countless god claims, with countless story lines. You will not encounter all the ones presented, nor will you ever encounter the ones (yet or never) to be discovered. And yet, you have likely merely settled on the one in which you were indoctrinated within.

If they would have something to me, don't you think they would have said it or sent the message?

As I recall, the argument (or excuse) is that you have to Invite the god into your hart, first, or He (or she) can't get their message through....

In this case I count if the message is delivered to me in a form of a book, or by some human telling the message directly. I would accept that as evidence for that the "god" has something to say for me. After that I could evaluate is the message good.

In the form of a Book? Or some fellow that knows as little directly about it as you, tells you (or someone else) what to believe? So why not what is in the Quran, or what some Muslim apologist tells you you should believe? If you are fooled by one religion or another (usually the one peddled where you live), so be it; but others are not. Somehow prayer, religions and gods are something that humans invent, and we don't know why. But there is no reason whatsoever that it is existing out of anyone's fancy.

[Replying to Wootah in post #36]

I think we all take life seriously. The ones who struggle with sorting out the problems of life are lawmakers, and those who puzzle about the 'eternal verities' as the Hitch Hiker's guide to the Galaxy puts it, are philosophers. The religions do not so much address the problem as come up with easy answers - invent a big invisible human that did everything including make morality like a blancmange tipped out of a mould, and do whatever it tells us or else, rather than work out what the good is.

No, religions were never the answer, they only claimed they were.

You seem to think that working out what the good is indicates you are taking life seriously.

But in other ways experimenting with your life Indicates that you think you have time to waste and are not taking life seriously.

Religion is the answer because at some point you will codify your experience.

On the contrary; realising (or theorizing at least) that this life is the only one we get, makes one prioritise time concentratedly; and time spent on grovelling to old idols, Holy Books and myths comes to be seen as a total waste of time. Of course, if that makes you happy, then go for it. But no way will you delude others into wasting their time on it when there are other options, by ensuring they never get to hear them.

Au contraire

Everyone grovels to idols, holy books and myths. Some at least know it. Know thyself.

Which is why I spend my time on this matter - providing reasonable alternatives to the claims of religions.

Yes, religion building is endemic, or as Girard might say mimetic.

Rather, know Ourselves, as we all do it and do it differently, or different gods and religions. It is something we invented, not something real.

[POI]

Your response is curious.... If your God speaks to everyone, without that person first summoning him in some particular way, then why does the Christian God not speak to everyone -- (including me)?

His message is in the Bible and it seems it has been offered also to you. And in addition to that, you have also people here answering to your questions about it so that you have even better chance to understand it.

All you have demonstrated is that a book was written by humans, and that humans are also responding to my questions. How do you know that when you pray, you are not just taking to yourself?

[1213]

...So why not what is in the Quran...

Quran says i should believe Jesus. I think i am doing just that.

“…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah… …believe in Allah and His messengers…”
Quran 4:171, https://legacy.quran.com/4/171

[TRANSPONDER]

Quran says you believe jJsus...did not die on the cross.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
— Quran 4:157–158[12]

I'm curious. I know you have Faith in what you believe and the Bible, scientific evidence and the Quran is to be fiddled to look like it supports what you want to believe. Even Christianity is fiddled to suit what you want to believe. That much is plain to be seen, but what I wonder is - did you suppose that a misrepresentation of Quranic belief like that was going to get past me? Did you think I wouldn't check? I'm not curious about Faithbased denial, I know how that works, but I'm curious as to how you thought it was going to fool me.

[1213]

Quran says you believe jJsus...did not die on the cross.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
— Quran 4:157–158[12]

Do you think that refutes the idea that people should believe Jesus?

[TRANSPONDER]

Quran says you believe jJsus...did not die on the cross.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
— Quran 4:157–158[12]

Do you think that refutes the idea that people should believe Jesus?

It refutes your attempt to show that the Quran endorses Jesusfaith. It does not. Now I have a question. Did you not know the context of the Quran quote or did you ignore it, hoping I wouldn't check? I'm sure you will recall that I have asked this before and you will (as an intelligent person ) see the implications of personal (or at least intellectual) honesty and what it says about Righteousness - whether it means being an honest and decent person, or whether lying for Jesus or trying to bamboozle others for the Faith is what is considered 'Being Righteous' in Religious terms.

[AquinasForGod]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

I cannot speak for others, but praying for me is not talking to myself. The reason why is because i have received clear answers even miracles like healing from being ill in bed for years, when the doctors did not know what was wrong. No, I will not go into details here. I am offering my reason why praying is not talking to myself. I feel no obligation to try to prove it to anyone.

Another reason is when I pray I often experience the graces of Jesus. I have experienced Mary, our Lady, Mother of God.

Another reason is when I was an atheist, I had some events happen hat made me think, what if I am wrong? Yeah, God felt as real to me as Santa, but just what if he existed? Well, I knew that if he did any miracle, even if that convinced me, I would eventually write it off. I would think it was an alien or something. I just know how my skeptical mind works. Besides, I had been given a miracle before and still I could not believe in God. He was just fake to me. It is just like how I cannot believe in Santa. I just can't.

So rather than asking for a miracle, I asked God to just make me believe. Change me, Lord. You know what it would take for me to believe, so why not just change me into that state of belief? God make me know you exist, then I will obey for sure. If I know you exist, then I will obey you. He answered that prayer for me. I already know people will say maybe you convinced yourself, etc. No. God was as real to me as Santa. Try to get yourself to believe Santa is real.

But also because I experienced God. But then I needed another prayer answered. Certain things were pointing me to Catholicism, but I just could not believe Jesus rose from the dead or that God incarnated. So I said, okay God. I want to obey you, but I don't know what to do. I cannot follow the church if I don't believe Jesus rose or that you incarnated. I said, at least make me know Jesus rose and I can accept the rest. Just let me know it is true like you changed me to know you exist. Do that for me because nothing else is working. I looked at all the evidence for the resurrection, and although the evidence, especially what Bart Ehrman said rose my needle form like 5% sure to like 55%, I still cannot believe. It is too hard to believe. Make me know it is true.

This prayer was not answered to quickly. it took a few months, but when God answered, not only did he make me a believer in the resurrection, he graced me to know he incarnated as well. Then I thought, dang, I should have just asked to make me believe all the church doctrines, lol. But I keep my word to God. I follow the church and obey, even those doctrines I find hard to accept.

These are some of the reasons why I don't think I am talking to myself when I pray. I have a living relationship with Christ. You can, too.

[POI]

I cannot speak for others, but praying for me is not talking to myself. The reason why is because i have received clear answers even miracles like healing from being ill in bed for years, when the doctors did not know what was wrong. No, I will not go into details here. I am offering my reason why praying is not talking to myself. I feel no obligation to try to prove it to anyone.

So instead, offer a baseless response

Another reason is when I pray I often experience the graces of Jesus. I have experienced Mary, our Lady, Mother of God.

How do you know you were not just talking to yourself? Countless people think/claim they are speaking to countless external agencies.

Another reason is when I was an atheist, I had some events happen hat made me think, what if I am wrong? Yeah, God felt as real to me as Santa, but just what if he existed? Well, I knew that if he did any miracle, even if that convinced me, I would eventually write it off. I would think it was an alien or something. I just know how my skeptical mind works. Besides, I had been given a miracle before and still I could not believe in God. He was just fake to me. It is just like how I cannot believe in Santa. I just can't.

So rather than asking for a miracle, I asked God to just make me believe. Change me, Lord. You know what it would take for me to believe, so why not just change me into that state of belief? God make me know you exist, then I will obey for sure. If I know you exist, then I will obey you. He answered that prayer for me. I already know people will say maybe you convinced yourself, etc. No. God was as real to me as Santa. Try to get yourself to believe Santa is real.

How do you know you were not just talking to yourself? Countless people think/claim they are speaking to countless external agencies.

But also because I experienced God. But then I needed another prayer answered. Certain things were pointing me to Catholicism, but I just could not believe Jesus rose from the dead or that God incarnated. So I said, okay God. I want to obey you, but I don't know what to do. I cannot follow the church if I don't believe Jesus rose or that you incarnated. I said, at least make me know Jesus rose and I can accept the rest. Just let me know it is true like you changed me to know you exist. Do that for me because nothing else is working. I looked at all the evidence for the resurrection, and although the evidence, especially what Bart Ehrman said rose my needle form like 5% sure to like 55%, I still cannot believe. It is too hard to believe. Make me know it is true.

This prayer was not answered to quickly. it took a few months, but when God answered, not only did he make me a believer in the resurrection, he graced me to know he incarnated as well. Then I thought, dang, I should have just asked to make me believe all the church doctrines, lol. But I keep my word to God. I follow the church and obey, even those doctrines I find hard to accept.

These are some of the reasons why I don't think I am talking to myself when I pray. I have a living relationship with Christ. You can, too.

How do you know you were not just talking to yourself? Countless people think/claim they are speaking to countless external agencies.

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Now, if God made you speak a foreign language immediately -- for which you do not know, or maybe caused you to bend physics (like levitating you), or other, then maybe we have something to work with... But....

I do not expect a response. You hardly do. Or, it comes months later.

[1213]

Quran says you believe jJsus...did not die on the cross.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
— Quran 4:157–158[12]

Do you think that refutes the idea that people should believe Jesus?

It refutes your attempt to show that the Quran endorses Jesusfaith. It does not. Now I have a question. Did you not know the context of the Quran quote or did you ignore it, hoping I wouldn't check? ...

I don't think that refutes in any way the idea that people should believe what Jesus said. It seems to me that you try to evade the point. And one can only wonder, why so, why do you find it so disturbing that you can't handle it without trying to change the topic.

[TRANSPONDER]

Quran says you believe jJsus...did not die on the cross.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
— Quran 4:157–158[12]

Do you think that refutes the idea that people should believe Jesus?

It refutes your attempt to show that the Quran endorses Jesusfaith. It does not. Now I have a question. Did you not know the context of the Quran quote or did you ignore it, hoping I wouldn't check? ...

I don't think that refutes in any way the idea that people should believe what Jesus said. It seems to me that you try to evade the point. And one can only wonder, why so, why do you find it so disturbing that you can't handle it without trying to change the topic.

I need hardly labour the point that you are the one evading the point I'm making and accusing me of the Biased evasion and shape -shifting that you are doing yourself. but the question remains - when you quoted the Quran's 'belief' in Jesus back at me, were you ignorant that the Quran says that Jesus did not die on the cross or any of the other doctrinal things Christian believe about him, or did you know and hope I wouldn't check? Evasion or pot - kettle accusations will only make you and your beliefs look bad.