Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[MissKate13]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #460]

And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: (Exodus 13:21)

The LORD is YHWH. Look at the original language if you care about truth. YHWH can be in any form He chooses.

This discussion boils down to meaningless arguing. I have better things to do. You refused to answer my simple yes or no question, which proves you’re not interested in a meaningful discussion.

Don’t waste your time posting back. I won’t be answering.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #460]

And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: (Exodus 13:21)

The LORD is YHWH. Look at the original language if you care about truth. YHWH can be in any form He chooses.

This discussion boils down to meaningless arguing. I have better things to do. You refused to answer my simple yes or no question, which proves you’re not interested in a meaningful discussion.

Don’t waste your time posting back. I won’t be answering.

Yes, I would expect that you wouldn't be answering anymore of our posts, as the Abraham saw Almighty God dogma been thoroughly defeated.

[JehovahsWitness]

EXODUS 13:21

And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night

DID JEHOVAH (YHWH) APPEAR BEFORE THE ANCIENTS IN THE FORM OF A FIRE ?

The pagans believed their gods transformed themselves into animals, objects and elements and appeared before men as these things but note what the bible says :

DEUTERONOMY 4:15

“Therefore, watch yourselves closely—since you did not see any form on the day Jehovah spoke to you in Horeb out of the middle of the fire

1 KINGS 19:12

After the earthquake, there was a fire, but Jehovah was not in the fire

Jehovah (YHWH) simply uses or manipulates the elements to fulfill his purpose but has never literally been seen by any human as confirmed by at John 1:18. So the pillar of fire that lead the Israelites out of Egypt was sent (as in miraculously appeared) by means of Gods awsome power, but should not be understood to have actually been YHWH burning.







JW




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[tam]

Peace to you all,

Just thought I would bump this post. I know MissKate said her response had disappeared (I do understand the frustration of losing an entire post), but perhaps enough time has passed for a second glance, even without a response.


*******


Peace to you,

Hi Tam,
I quoted John 17:5, and 17:24 to show that Jesus was in the beginning with God. He had glory from the beginning. Genesis 1:1 tells us that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” John 1:1 tells us that “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God…”. My point was that both Jesus and God were in the beginning. They have always been, they are and they will always be. They are eternal.

Eternity (if we are counting eternal past as well as eternal future) and beginning are not the same thing. Yes, both God and His Son are together in the beginning. But that cannot mean the beginning of their existence because God at least had no beginning. He has always been.

So... the beginning of what?

And how would being together in the beginning mean that they are the same BEING?

There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was created.

Christ was not created. He was born. He is a SON. He is the firstborn (of/over all creation) and the only begotten son. If someone is begotten, they had to have had a beginning.

He is also the Light ("Let there be LIGHT); He is also Wisdom (from Proverbs 8).


So there is evidence that He was born, brought forth from His Father (whom He also calls His God, both before and after His return to His Father).

If that were so, it would have been made clear in Scripture.

Firstborn.
Son of.
Begotten.


These are clear terms.


The 'trinity' (and I know you do not use that word, but the idea behind it) is not clear in scripture. Can you apply your same reasoning (it would have been made clear in scripture) to the idea that Christ is [YHWH]?

I do not believe that Jesus being the “firstborn” over all creation means he was created. We can discuss that in another post if you’d like.

It does not mean that He was created. It means that He was born.

I asked you why the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus. You correctly stated that it was because he said “Before Abraham was I am.” (John 8:58) There is no I am he, or I am the one, or I am the Messiah in the verse. He simply said “Before Abraham was, I am.” The Jews understood the claim he was making. Do you honestly think they didn’t immediately recall Exodus 3:14? In their eyes he was blaspheming. That’s why they picked up stones to throw at him.

But they were obviously wrong that He was blaspheming, yes? So even if they had thought He was claiming to be God (which makes no sense; He never said "I am I AM"), that would not mean they were correct. On top of that, Exodus 3:14 may not even have been written as "I AM"; in which case no one could even attempt to make a connection with it and what Christ said.

But either way, Christ did not claim to be "I AM". In order for Him to make that claim, He would have had to say, I am "I am." Just saying the words "I am" means what? I am... the Messiah. I am... he. I am... the Son of God. I am... before Abraham.

In another instance, they took up stones to stone him because they said he had blasphemed, making himself God.

33The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” (John 10:3:)

And then Christ IMMEDIATELY corrected them:

[Jesus] answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

According to Christ, some can indeed be called gods even though they are not THE God (His Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, [YHWH]). At no point does He say, yeah, I am God. He corrects them on their erroneous blasphemy charge, and then emphasizes that He is God's Son.

And again, the Jews sought to kill him because he said God was his father, making himself God

18Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

Do you believe the Jews were correct that Christ broke the Sabbath? If not, why do you think they were correct that Christ made Himself equal with God (not that being equal with someone means that you ARE that someone)? Christ said, "The Father is greater than I."

**************

I am so happy that you left the org. Our dear Lord saw your heart. He knew you were having doubts about what you were hearing, and he knew you were seeking. He heard you and answered. It was the same with me leaving Catholicism. My Lord saw my heart. He knew I was seeking.

Yes, the Jesus is Michael thing should be a red flag for all JW’s. Imho, I think the JW’s are afraid of the repercussions if they question this and other teachings. There is much at stake for them. Being utterly shunned and losing family and friends would be very hard to cope with.

That is the point of it, to make it hard to leave, and make sure no one gets to know why you left if you DO leave (because you are now to be shunned).

(I never joined their organization, btw. You can't leave what you didn't join. My Lord is the One who kept me out of them though.)

Their teaching that all non JW’s would be killed forever is a fear tactic. I grew up in Catholicism, and back then, the RCC taught that if you were not Catholic, you were going to hell. Again, that’s a fear tactic. It has to do with control.

Yes.

Im happy for you that you were able to cut your ties with the org, but I fear that some of their teachings may have influenced you more than you realize.

I wonder what you will think to know that I think the same thing of you? I am happy you left the RCC, but perhaps you carried a bit of her teachings with you as well?

Please note though that I never believed in a trinity (or the idea behind it) even before the jws. I also did not (could not) accept their teaching about Christ being Michael. But I still had to be careful, examine myself, hold all things UP to the Light, to Christ (the Truth).

The best think you could do for yourself is pray constantly, asking our dear Father in heaven to show you HIS truth. Ask Him to help you let go any teachings that are from men that you may not be aware of. This is my constant prayer as well. I ask Him to show me His way, and not mine.

What you have asked me to do is the right thing for us to do. I often suggest something similar of others; though to tear EVERYTHING down to the cornerstone (Christ) and then build back up on Him (or let Him build us back up on Him). So I thank you.

But this is exactly what I did do, dear MissKate. I asked for my Father in heaven for His truth, I asked Him to lead me to wherever He wanted me to be.

I had even been quite frustrated for a time because I could not find a direct statement in the bible or from Christ that there is - or is no - trinity, but then again, there is no direct statement from Him that He is - or is not - Michael. But can you imagine if He had to make a direct statement against every false thing that men would one day teach about Him? He might not have gotten any other words in edgewise, lol. Instead of speaking against everything false; He spoke what is TRUE <- and we who are HIS sheep, HIS disciples, are to listen to and remain in Him.

Who cares what anyone else teaches?

I had been causing my own frustration, when instead I just needed to listen to Christ < - the One who speaks the truth and only the truth; the One who is the Word of God; the One to whom my Father told me to listen and drew me TO. My Father in heaven DID indeed answer my prayer and lead me to where He wanted me to be (even to His Truth): to His Son Jaheshua (meaning Jah saves/savior of JAH). I am to listen to Christ. I am not to worry about all the things other men come up with; I don't need to chase down every rabbit hole out there. I just need to listen to Christ and to remain in HIS word, and not worry about the words of others. He said that He is the Son of God. That is what I know to be true from my Lord.


He also teaches that He is the Life (the Tree of Life, from whom we must eat in order to live forever), the Truth, the Light, the Word of God, the Amen, the Chosen One of JAH, the Holy One of God.

Have a blessed night,

Thank you MissKate. You as well, and peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy



********


Peace again!

[MissKate13]

=tam post_id=1130468 time=1693588908 user_id=119

Eternity (if we are counting eternal past as well as eternal future) and beginning are not the same thing. Yes, both God and His Son are together in the beginning. But that cannot mean the beginning of their existence because God at least had no beginning. He has always been.

So... the beginning of what?

And how would being together in the beginning mean that they are the same BEING?

Eternity is eternity. We are incapable of wrapping our heads around that concept. How else could Moses (Genesis 1) or John (John 1) explain to us that Jesus is eternal unless they used the phrase “In the beginning?” Our brains cannot fathom eternity.

Paul writes in Colossians 1:17, “And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

Jesus is eternal. He was with God before creation. He is before all things in existence. Time did not exist prior to creation, and Jesus created all things.

So there is evidence that He was born, brought forth from His Father (whom He also calls His God, both before and after His return to His Father).”

Yes Jesus was born, and He came forth from the Father (John 16:28). What is your point?

Jesus was in subjection to His Father. How does that make Jesus not equal to the Father?

There is a difference between the nature of Jesus and His role. Can you show with Scripture that Jesus was not equal to the Father in nature?

Firstborn.
Son of.
Begotten.

These are clear terms.

They are not clear to some. JW’s see these terms as meaning physical birth. First born of all creation is about Jesus’ resurrection, being the firstborn from the dead, never to die again.

The 'trinity' (and I know you do not use that word, but the idea behind it) is not clear in scripture. Can you apply your same reasoning (it would have been made clear in scripture) to the idea that Christ is [YHWH]?

I can and will when I have more time. I have a ladies Nible class to prepare for this morning.

I do not believe that Jesus being the “firstborn” over all creation means he was created. We can discuss that in another post if you’d like.

Good! Neither do I.

It does not mean that He was created. It means that He was born.

Yes Jesus was born, but He was also firstborn from the dead (Resurrected).

I asked you why the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus. You correctly stated that it was because he said “Before Abraham was I am.” (John 8:58) There is no I am he, or I am the one, or I am the Messiah in the verse. He simply said “Before Abraham was, I am.” The Jews understood the claim he was making. Do you honestly think they didn’t immediately recall Exodus 3:14? In their eyes he was blaspheming. That’s why they picked up stones to throw at him.

Yes, they immediately recalled Exodus 3:14.
What does I AM in the Hebrew language mean? Why did the Jews think Jesus was blaspheming? The Scriptures tell us. Jesus was making Himself equal to God.

But they were obviously wrong that He was blaspheming, yes? So even if they had thought He was claiming to be God (which makes no sense; He never said "I am I AM"), that would not mean they were correct. On top of that, Exodus 3:14 may not even have been written as "I AM"; in which case no one could even attempt to make a connection with it and what Christ said.

Obviously wrong to you perhaps, but not to billions of others. Jesus referred to Himself as I AM, which is the name Jehovah referred to Himself as. “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.” (Exodus 3:14)

But either way, Christ did not claim to be "I AM". In order for Him to make that claim, He would have had to say, I am "I am." Just saying the words "I am" means what? I am... the Messiah. I am... he. I am... the Son of God. I am... before Abraham.

That would be your opinion. Again I ask, what does I AM mean in the Hebrew language?

Tam, I cannot address all of your post. It is wayyyy too long.

One thing I’d like you to consider, however. Why did Jesus accept worship from so many when He Himself told Satan, “ ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”. Shouldn’t Jesus have rebuked those who worshiped Him?

Please keep your answers short and to the point.

[tam]

Peace to you,

=tam post_id=1130468 time=1693588908 user_id=119

Eternity (if we are counting eternal past as well as eternal future) and beginning are not the same thing. Yes, both God and His Son are together in the beginning. But that cannot mean the beginning of their existence because God at least had no beginning. He has always been.

So... the beginning of what?

And how would being together in the beginning mean that they are the same BEING?

Eternity is eternity. We are incapable of wrapping our heads around that concept. How else could Moses (Genesis 1) or John (John 1) explain to us that Jesus is eternal unless they used the phrase “In the beginning?” Our brains cannot fathom eternity.

Paul writes in Colossians 1:17, “And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

Jesus is eternal. He was with God before creation. He is before all things in existence. Time did not exist prior to creation, and Jesus created all things.

Are you saying the word "beginning" means "eternity"? Because that is not correct.

You asked how else the authors could have explained that [Jesus] is eternal? Well... why could they not simply have used the word eternal? Eternal (or its greek/hebrew equivalent) is not an unknown word to them.

Christ is indeed before all things... but "all things" does not include His Father because Christ is not before His Father.

I do not see where you answered the following question:

Christ and His Father are together 'in the beginning'. But how does being together in the beginning mean that they are the same BEING?

So there is evidence that He was born, brought forth from His Father (whom He also calls His God, both before and after His return to His Father).”

Yes Jesus was born, and He came forth from the Father (John 16:28). What is your point?

If someone is born, brought forth from their Father, then do they not have a beginning?

Firstborn.
Son of.
Begotten.

These are clear terms.

They are not clear to some.

I realize it has been a while since we started this conversation so just a quick recap:

Originally you said this:

There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was created. If that were so, it would have been made clear in Scripture.

I responded:

Christ was not created. He was born. He is a SON. He is the firstborn (of/over all creation) and the only begotten son. If someone is begotten, they had to have had a beginning.

He is also the Light ("Let there be LIGHT); He is also Wisdom (from Proverbs 8).


So there is evidence that He was born, brought forth from His Father (whom He also calls His God, both before and after His return to His Father).

So it IS clear from scripture that Christ was born.

It is not clear that Christ was created. It is not clear that Christ is [YHWH] (especially not with Psalm 110:1 and Matt 22:44 in consideration). It is not clear that Christ is the Archangel Michael. It is not clear that Christ is part of a trinity.

It IS clear that Christ is the Son of God (He states so Himself).
It IS clear that Christ was born, brought forth from the Father.

First born of all creation is about Jesus’ resurrection, being the firstborn from the dead, never to die again.

Was Christ not the Son of God - including God's firstborn - even before He came to earth as a man, then died and was resurrected?

What does I AM in the Hebrew language mean?

Well, there are no capital letters so I imagine it depends upon the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek words.

"I am" simply means "I am".

"Ego" means "I".

"Eimi" can mean a few things, including "I am" or "am".

If you want me to say that "I am" always means the name God gave to Moses, I cannot say that because it is not true.

But they were obviously wrong that He was blaspheming, yes? So even if they had thought He was claiming to be God (which makes no sense; He never said "I am I AM"), that would not mean they were correct. On top of that, Exodus 3:14 may not even have been written as "I AM"; in which case no one could even attempt to make a connection with it and what Christ said.

Obviously wrong to you perhaps,

It has nothing to do with me. They were wrong that He was blaspheming because Christ immediately corrected their error. Did He not?

Here is the reason they gave for picking up stones to stone Him:

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

And here is His correction:

“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Here He responds:

1 - that men can be called gods (without claiming to be [YHWH])
2 - 'if men can be called gods, then what about the one whom the Father set apart as His own and sent into the world? (in other words, if men can be called gods, then how much more so the one the Father set apart as His very own).
3 - He then clearly states that His claim is being God's SON.

Now if He wanted to confirm that He was God [YHWH], Himself, why would He not have said something along those lines? Instead He corrects them their false charge of blasphemy, reminds them that there are men who can be called gods, and that He is not guilty of blasphemy for stating that He is God's Son.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Ross]

Was Christ not the Son of God - including God's firstborn - even before He came to earth as a man....?

Hi Tam,
Sorry to jump into this conversation, but where is your scriptural content for this?
I am always open for correction, but I don't see any Biblical proof of this.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Was Christ not the Son of God - including God's firstborn - even before He came to earth as a man....?

Hi Tam,
Sorry to jump into this conversation, but where is your scriptural content for this?
I am always open for correction, but I don't see any Biblical proof of this.

Something from the bible?

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

If God made the universe through His Son, then Christ must have been the Son of God before having comes to earth as a man. Yes?


Peace again to you!

[MissKate13]

[Replying to tam in post #468]

Hi Tam,
Can you show that Jesus was the eternal Son of God with Scripture?

You quoted from Hebrews, “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”

The author of Hebrews is simply pointing out that Christian dispensation, we are to listen to Jesus. Naturally, the author refers to Jesus as the Son.
Blessings,
Kate

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #469]

I don't understand why you are asking me that question. Ross asked me if there was something in scripture to show that Christ was the Son of God even before becoming a man, and I posted that verse from Hebrews.


Peace again.