Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[brunumb]

Trans is popular right now, ......

Not just popular, it has become an obsession and I don't understand why. Society is being upended by gender ideology of all things. How will any of that lead to a better world?

[otseng]

You're having trouble with your comprehension today, it seems.

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[oldbadger]

So if you want transgender kids to continue to have access to care, there's nothing for it but being for indemnity for the people giving them that care. In other words, all those forms they signed have to hold, even if they argue that they didn't really consent or understand.

OK, so long as these caregivers are not directing or provoking any particular actions.

Well, you should seek help and advice in areas where someone else has the expertise, but you don't have to. The experts all say smoking is bad for you, a terrible choice, nothing to be gained by it. But you know what? In a free society you can choose to ignore that advice and do the dumb thing anyway. So, if that freedom of making your own choices should extend to kids, then it should extend to kids. Let them smoke if they want to.

A youth feeling that they are in the wrong gender and a kid who wants to smoke are different situations entirely.
And since you mention experts, do you follow the guidance from anybody who claims to be an 'expert'?

It's almost like the Left is being intentionally inconsistent to drum up opposition to their cause. I have never seen anyone I have known personally, who was not ideologically taunted in this manner ("Trans people should have this right, but see, it's a special right that only applies to these people in this case, and it's not for anyone else,")

I don't see transgenderism as a Left-Right issue but a medical one.

So maybe it's important, when we imagine rights people ought to have, that they don't, to apply those rights beyond what is popular right this second, otherwise we get unfair laws and an inequal society.

Ah.....fashions..... we are all driven by fashions to some extent or other, I guess.

[oldbadger]

Nope. Your blinkered view only allows you to see things from the perspective of the ideology you have consumed. I would never treat anyone unfairly on the basis of their sexuality. That does not been that I must adopt false science or be bullied into accepting lies in order to satisfy unwarranted demands based on the beliefs of others.

Hang on......... we already know that you'd call them by any pronoun that suited you.......not them.
I think you've given yourself away, you know.

[oldbadger]

The phrasing above is poor, so to clarify... My hypothetical elderly neighbor that wont respect my preferred pronouns, would you seek to restrict her speech or would you not?

No....not really. If you have an ignorant and nasty minded neighbour who doesn't consider your personal feelings then you'll just have to ignore them. But if they talk to other neighbours about you in a way that provokes any actions against you.......... call the police.

I haven't looked and will not do your work for you. If you are interested about convictions, then look to see if what you are curious about has happened or not.

That's ok..... I have been feeling quite certain from the start that there isn't one....nothing to find, so I am satisfied with this outcome.

You are purposely being obtuse it seems.

I have been warned for making a personal comment to you about comprehension, so I won't respond to the above.

Then look for one! Don't be lazy and ask me to look for you.

That's fine......... I didn't think that there was one. Seems like I'm right.

I feel like I'm herding cats here.

We have to guard from personal comments, I have been told.

[historia]

Every European country that has undertaken a systematic review of the relevant literature as part of a formal evidence-based medical assessment has concluded that there is a lack of evidence for both the safety and clinical effectiveness of hormone treatments for gender dysphoria. In direct response to this, those countries have all sharply curtailed administering puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to children under 18.

Given that data, do you think it is reasonable for people to express concerns about the fact that these treatments are still being administered to children as young as 12 in many parts of the United States, Canada, and other countries? (Let me be clear: I'm not asking whether you agree with those people. I'm simply asking whether you think it's reasonable for them to express concern.)

Yes, that is fair.

In that case, may I recommend in the future not trying to shout down those people.

As I read about it, it appears they are simply changing the rules for people under 12, but then provide all the support a person would need after that, including surgery.

I think you meant to say "people under 18" here, which would be accurate. But, yes, once you reach the age of majority in these countries -- once you become an adult -- you can basically do what you want, including taking off-label drugs and undergoing surgeries to alter your appearance.

[Purple Knight]

So if you want transgender kids to continue to have access to care, there's nothing for it but being for indemnity for the people giving them that care. In other words, all those forms they signed have to hold, even if they argue that they didn't really consent or understand.

OK, so long as these caregivers are not directing or provoking any particular actions.

The opposition on the Right thinks they are, and there are detransitioners coming out saying they were led into it.

Well, you should seek help and advice in areas where someone else has the expertise, but you don't have to. The experts all say smoking is bad for you, a terrible choice, nothing to be gained by it. But you know what? In a free society you can choose to ignore that advice and do the dumb thing anyway. So, if that freedom of making your own choices should extend to kids, then it should extend to kids. Let them smoke if they want to.

A youth feeling that they are in the wrong gender and a kid who wants to smoke are different situations entirely.[/quote]

Why? What's the relevant difference?

And since you mention experts, do you follow the guidance from anybody who claims to be an 'expert'?

I take all advice into very honest and thoughtful consideration, generally equally, though it is weighted towards genuine experts since, if I don't know something, they are what I seek out. But I've become cynical about "experts" and sometimes I think that the more pieces of paper or endorsements from others that say someone is an expert, the more likely it is that they're a dunce who can't do their job and had it handed to them on a silver platter, thanks to their charisma and people skills. And the people who have studied and have experience, but are denied titles? Well they have to work three times as hard, and know ten times as much.

I don't see transgenderism as a Left-Right issue but a medical one.

Is there even one other case when you think someone's cosmetic surgery - and that is what it is, cosmetic, makes them feel better, but does not make them physically healthier - is medically necessary? If not, and if you don't care that cosmetic surgery is the most successful factor in preventing criminal recidivism, or that breast implants increase female confidence so provably that Australia gives them out to its military for free, then I don't think you consider it medical, because the medical issue of people being so sad about their physical self that it has negative effects that can be reduced or eliminated by cosmetic surgery, extends further than characteristics that happen to be tied to sex.

Trans is popular right now, ......

Not just popular, it has become an obsession and I don't understand why. Society is being upended by gender ideology of all things. How will any of that lead to a better world?

I think if it had been done right, it could have. A truly genderless world would definitely be a better one. You like who you like, you dress how you want, you mate with who you want to mate with, the best at sports win at sports, and that's just the end of it. And nobody makes a problem out of it.

And why should they make a big deal in my world? Let's be honest - only a fraction of a percent of the populace is good enough to play sports at a professional level, and the fact that you didn't have a chance because you didn't get a Y chromosome is the same as not having a chance because you didn't get any of a myriad of other genes that would have catapulted you to the top. Why would anyone need to change their penis into a vagina because they feel a certain way? In my world, they wouldn't, because the bodies people have and the way they feel, dress, act and interact would be tangled up by precisely nobody. Nobody is "born in the wrong body" because any body gets whatever it wants to get. No men's clothes section, no women's clothes section, just clothes. You buy whichever pieces you like and that's the rat-licking, bed-wetting, turd-nurgling end of it!!!

But we're moving away from that, not toward it.

[oldbadger]

....there are detransitioners coming out saying they were led into it.

Could we review a case, if you have one in mind?
I've heard of instances, but after reviewing them and the pictures of Mother and Transitioned daughter smiling happily together as they seek $100,000 in damages it seems really very likely that they planned the whole thing all along.
The medics need to do all that they can to counsel the young away from transition, but when gthey discover cases that urgently and desperately need it then they could introduce that patient in to a plan.

Why? What's the relevant difference?

Between a youth feeling that they are in the wrong gender and a kid who wants to smoke ?
One is absolutely convinced that they are in the wrong body and desperately need to change sex, the other feels that it would look cool to follow peer pressure and smoke. I think that a specialist could separate out those two needs fairly easily.
And parents discovering that a shop has been selling cigs to a young kid could get a conviction, a claim and a huge settlement...for sure!
In the UK parents must be included in any part of a gender transition unless a parent has been violent with the youth.

I take all advice into very honest and thoughtful consideration, generally equally, though it is weighted towards genuine experts since, if I don't know something, they are what I seek out. But I've become cynical about "experts" and sometimes I think that the more pieces of paper or endorsements from others that say someone is an expert, the more likely it is that they're a dunce who can't do their job and had it handed to them on a silver platter, thanks to their charisma and people skills. And the people who have studied and have experience, but are denied titles? Well they have to work three times as hard, and know ten times as much.

If you've become cynical about some experts but listen to some others then it might be best to dump the word and look at what these people actually do, individually.

I don't buy any claim just because 'an expert told us'.

Is there even one other case when you think someone's cosmetic surgery - and that is what it is, cosmetic, makes them feel better, but does not make them physically healthier - is medically necessary? If not, and if you don't care that cosmetic surgery is the most successful factor in preventing criminal recidivism, or that breast implants increase female confidence so provably that Australia gives them out to its military for free, then I don't think you consider it medical, because the medical issue of people being so sad about their physical self that it has negative effects that can be reduced or eliminated by cosmetic surgery, extends further than characteristics that happen to be tied to sex.

People who feel better can be more healthy because of just that.
But people who spend masses of money to look like 'Cruella de Ville' (I can think of a UK TV personality) then I feel sad for them.

[Purple Knight]

....there are detransitioners coming out saying they were led into it.

Could we review a case, if you have one in mind?
I've heard of instances, but after reviewing them and the pictures of Mother and Transitioned daughter smiling happily together as they seek $100,000 in damages it seems really very likely that they planned the whole thing all along.

I think Chloe Cole is a decent case, but I don't want to boil it down to one case because there surely are cases of detransitioners just being greedy, just as there are surely cases of people faking being trans for the glee it gives them to catch people misgendering them, and just the way you wouldn't want transgenerism as a whole reduced to a few unscrupulous individuals, I think it's fair to ask that you treat detransitioners with the same presumption that at least some of them are honest in their feeling that they were misled.

And as I said, it's going to affect the landscape of what can, and cannot be done in medicine in general. And you can't disentangle the issue from children being incompetent to decide, since they are starting on these paths as children and some of them will grow up and feel misled.

Between a youth feeling that they are in the wrong gender and a kid who wants to smoke ?
One is absolutely convinced that they are in the wrong body and desperately need to change sex, the other feels that it would look cool to follow peer pressure and smoke. I think that a specialist could separate out those two needs fairly easily.
And parents discovering that a shop has been selling cigs to a young kid could get a conviction, a claim and a huge settlement...for sure!
In the UK parents must be included in any part of a gender transition unless a parent has been violent with the youth.

Then in my thinking, the UK does right, if you want to keep the idea of parental authority (which I've said I do not believe in, but I can't convince anyone so I just have to accept it). But other countries like Canada do not. Any country that will just side with the kid and cut the parent out of the issue is hypocritical unless it will also let the child smoke. You dodged the issue by stating penalties. I didn't ask about what the law is, but what it ought to be and why. And how do you know the child who wants to smoke is motivated by something shallow? Maybe having a network of stable friends is worth more than having healthy lungs so you can be 90 someday.

If you've become cynical about some experts but listen to some others then it might be best to dump the word and look at what these people actually do, individually.

I don't buy any claim just because 'an expert told us'.

I don't either unless I trust that particular expert because I sought him out.

People who feel better can be more healthy because of just that.
But people who spend masses of money to look like 'Cruella de Ville' (I can think of a UK TV personality) then I feel sad for them.

Cruella DeVille is hot. She's a stylized version of what is hot. Cheekbones are hot. People want that high fashion look. I feel sorry for any girls who don't have a chance to look like that, never really wanted to be trans, but took that path because they realised that what they can get for free because it's a human right, will turn them into a halfway attractive man, but if they want the option to be an attractive woman, well, too bad, they should have been born with a penis. You haven't noticed this, that trans women are always hot, because the doctors don't stop at frumpy uggo, they make them look at least decent? This includes removing beard hair. Women with beards do not get that.

[Clownboat]

The phrasing above is poor, so to clarify... My hypothetical elderly neighbor that wont respect my preferred pronouns, would you seek to restrict her speech or would you not?

No....not really. If you have an ignorant and nasty minded neighbour who doesn't consider your personal feelings then you'll just have to ignore them.

I am glad to hear that you would be against laws that would restrict our speech (exceptions to every rule of course) as that would be an attempt to control and dominate others, something you are against.
Crazy don't you think as to how hard and how long it took us to get to this point? First you wanted examples, then when you got an example, you wanted to see convictions. It all seemed like a dodge to me.

That's ok..... I have been feeling quite certain from the start that there isn't one....nothing to find, so I am satisfied with this outcome.

You asking for a conviction was just you trying to avoid answering the question above that you finally provided an answer to. You were only pretending that finding a conviction mattered to the question that was asked of you. Therefore, I don't understand your satisfaction, but it seems wholly irrelevant.

I have been warned for making a personal comment to you about comprehension, so I won't respond to the above.

No worries, an apology is not needed. Again, I'm all for people being allowed to show their true colors so to speak (exceptions to every rule again).

That's fine......... I didn't think that there was one. Seems like I'm right.

And.... therefore....

I feel like I'm herding cats here.

We have to guard from personal comments, I have been told.

I explain how I'm feeling and you think a personal comment is being made? Ok...

Remember, I asked a yes/no question about restricting speech, specifically using the wrong pronoun for a person. You wanted an example of using the wrong pronoun for a person (I know, right!) and when one was supplied (the elderly neighbor), you then wanted to see a conviction. All these posts later, I finally got the answer that you wouldn't restrict her speech. Well, 'not really' anyway.