Size of a Religion - or Cult

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boatsnguitars
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Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

I have to say, this was the most remarkable, and unintentionally hillarious posts I have read in a long time.
anon2 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:54 am
anon1 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:11 pm Many religions and denominations take pride, even boast of how large their followers are in numbers and the rate at which they are growing. But the thread of truth that runs throughout the whole of the scriptures is that God has always worked through the minority and never through the majority. This teaches us that when people look at their large numbers and equate that with their reasoning of God working through them, well the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

There are numerous accounts in the Bible which teach this truth, but my favorite is regarding the 400 prophets of Israel who were called to inquire of God whether king Ahab should go into battle and obtain victory or not. And since these 400 prophets were prophets of Israel, and Israel was recognized as the people of God, then surely these 400 prophets were true prophets of God, right? Especially since they all came to the same conclusion and spoke with one voice unto the king saying that God would surely give this king victory. Yet one one man is called to see what God had to say and he told the king that the king would die in battle and that these 400 prophets were false prophets.

But what's more, is that these 400 prophets truly believed that they were true children of God and that the one lone prophet wasn't. This is a tremendous warning to those who find comfort and assurance in the size of their religious group who claim the name of God. Anyone can read this account in 1 Kings 22.

What do you think about God always working through the minority? What do you think about those groups who firmly believe they are the people of God but are in fact not?
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I actually agree with what you’ve written. 😁

Imho, many denominations are in for a rude awakening.
Obviously, this is what you'd say if you believe in a small sect or cult! What a way to justify your belief - that only rare beliefs are true! It's downright, abjectly hillarious! This is "Motivated reasoning" at it's finest.

It's why I think religion damages the brain. Some people actually think this is a justification of why their beliefs may be true! It's patently absurd!

These people vote, possibly raise and teach our children, etc.

No doubt this was preceded by someone from a mega church, or the RCC saying that their sect was more popular - so, instead of simply agreeing, they've decided to use it as an Apologetic.

Isn't this a perfect example of Apologetics? The motivation, the bad logic, etc? To me it is.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #61

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:44 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:17 pm ...If it is a command from God then it must be lawful and therefore not murder.
I don't think God commands killing, but, if God would command killing, it should still go by the other rules also.
Why do you keep side-stepping the issue? Let me frame it as a direct question. If it is a command from God is it lawful and therefore not murder? Yes or No?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #62

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:16 pm ...If it is a command from God is it lawful and therefore not murder? Yes or No?
It depends on what the law says and what is the reason why God commands it and also about is the accusation also correct.

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #63

Post by 1213 »

boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:10 pm ...
You don't think God commands killing? Why not? Did you ask him?
I have no reason to think God commands killing at the moment, nor I have any reason to ask that.

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #64

Post by boatsnguitars »

1213 wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:06 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:10 pm ...
You don't think God commands killing? Why not? Did you ask him?
I have no reason to think God commands killing at the moment, nor I have any reason to ask that.
You don't want to know if he commanded Hamas to kill all those people? That's not a concern of yours? Do you not care about your fellow human beings on this planet?
I htink you are actively avoiding the hard questions.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #65

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:04 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:16 pm ...If it is a command from God is it lawful and therefore not murder? Yes or No?
It depends on what the law says and what is the reason why God commands it and also about is the accusation also correct.
We are talking about GOD here. No depends. No need to know the reason. GOD COMMANDS IT. So, is it therefore lawful and therefore not murder? Please stop dodging.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #66

Post by boatsnguitars »

brunumb wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 7:33 am
1213 wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:04 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:16 pm ...If it is a command from God is it lawful and therefore not murder? Yes or No?
It depends on what the law says and what is the reason why God commands it and also about is the accusation also correct.
We are talking about GOD here. No depends. No need to know the reason. GOD COMMANDS IT. So, is it therefore lawful and therefore not murder? Please stop dodging.
He has to answer in obtuse ways. He knows he can't seem to speak for God - while he speaks for God - so he has to make it sound like he's being clever, like Jesus:
Question:
Why did Jesus reply, "It is you who say that I am" when asked if he was the Son of God?
Answer:
In the Gospel of Luke, it is not until the trial before the Sanhedrin (22:70-71) that an earthly person calls Jesus “Son of God.” It is said by an angel (1:35), Satan (4:3), and demons (4:41, 8:28) but not by any human being. In Luke, even Peter’s confession does not contain “Son of God” but rather Peter calls Jesus the “Messiah of God” (9:20).

The scene is meant to be ironic in that it is Jesus’ enemies who first recognize him for who he truly is. Jesus’ response emphasizes that it is they who have made this statement (the first time recorded from human beings) and that this is the reason they hate him. The Sanhedrin were trying to trap Jesus into making a claim that they could have him executed for, and what ends up happening is that they are the ones who proclaim his identity. They recognize the Son of God but refuse to accept him.

In the Gospel of Matthew, this scene unfolds with a similar emphasis but different theme (26:63-64). A human being has already proclaimed Jesus the Son of God (16:16), so that is not the imagery that Matthew is using. Still, Matthew is using it as a statement of irony. Jesus replies to the Sanhedrin, “You have said so,” and it is meant to recall the previous time Jesus made that same statement (Matt. 26:25). When Jesus predicted his betrayal by one of the disciples, Judas said, “Sure it is not I, Rabbi?”, and Jesus responded by saying, “You have said so.” It is a literary device to show that the one asking the question has unintentionally provided the answer to the question.

Compare Jesus's answer to Jesus's advice:
Matthew 5:37
37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

The real answer should have been "yes" or "no" - but Jesus chose to answer with something from the evil one.

Curious, no? Especially when he was trying to avoid being executed - even though that was the divine plan, and was going to happen regardless. And, in fact, was required by the prophesy - so why was he avoiding the answer?

Perhaps because he knew he wasn't the Son of God.


Religion, eh? Pretty silly.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #67

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The bottom line seems to be that OT God behaves in a way that a authoritarian and warlike ruler would act. JW made a decent point about the Amalekites (not as I recall the Midianites who opted for pacifism 8-) and so deserved extermination) joined with the Edomites and deserved everythging that God did to them. Dudes, the Assyrians behaved like that and they were supposed to be evil. But 'evil' seems to be 'not in God's tribe or allied to it'. Bottom line as I say, OT God seems created in mans' image as indeed NT god is created in the image of the Greek Christians and their opinions. Just as every other god is created in the image of the creaters of the doctrine.

Isn't it clear that relkigions and their gods and Holy books are man made, even if there is some sorta creator.

So even if the actions of a god can be excused because 'Those people were on the wrong side' or 'they deserved to drown including the kids and kittens because they were all wicked' is just insultingly cheap and easy, and 1213's evasive going round in circles is self -defeating because if some of the stuff that happens is not God's doing because God would never order a bad thing, then why isn't ALL of it not a god's doing? "I believe that it is" and "You have to prove me wrong" are not valid arguments, nor is "I do not accept what you say is valid argument" is valid argument.

Fact is, as I I have observed, the debate was won long ago; the tricky bit is to not even to get the beleivers to admit they lost (they never will) but let people hear the results, instead of a one sided "We won all the arguments" from the theist side who want to keep atheists quiet and without a Voice just as in the Goold Old Atrheism days ;)

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #68

Post by Clownboat »

brunumb wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:23 pm Then what was the point of the exercise?

Does the story of Abraham and Isaac have a message for the people? Maybe.

"Listen up people. God told Abraham to kill his son. Even though it would have been the hardest thing on earth for him to do, Abraham obeyed and was prepared to do whatever God asked of him. As we priests are God's spokesmen here on earth, you should also do whatever we ask you to do in his name, no matter how hard you might find it. Now, we are getting hungry and God says you should bring us lunch."
What!? We are out of food?
God has told me to inform you that our neighbors across the river are evil and need to be killed. While committing genocide, take their food, livestock and any virgin girls you would like.
Than bring us lunch!

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. — Seneca.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

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If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #69

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 7:33 am
1213 wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:04 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:16 pm ...If it is a command from God is it lawful and therefore not murder? Yes or No?
It depends on what the law says and what is the reason why God commands it and also about is the accusation also correct.
We are talking about GOD here. No depends. No need to know the reason. GOD COMMANDS IT. So, is it therefore lawful and therefore not murder? Please stop dodging.
First you ask is it lawful and then you say no need to know the reasons. How could one know is it lawful without knowing about law and the reasons?

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Re: Size of a Religion - or Cult

Post #70

Post by 1213 »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:55 am
1213 wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:06 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:10 pm ...
You don't think God commands killing? Why not? Did you ask him?
I have no reason to think God commands killing at the moment, nor I have any reason to ask that.
You don't want to know if he commanded Hamas to kill all those people? That's not a concern of yours? Do you not care about your fellow human beings on this planet?
I htink you are actively avoiding the hard questions.
I know Bible God didn't command Hamas to kill anyone.

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