Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

...People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus....

"Christian" doctrine can be wrong. I personally want to be loyal to God and his word, not to "Christian" doctrines.

[1213]

Without works faith is meaningless, one is not really faithful (loyal) to God, if it doesn't show also in his actions.

So your answer is D)?

My answer is other, God saves those who are righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
My defense is on God, who saves the upright of heart.
Ps. 7:10

And here is one way to become righteous:

Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see God's Kingdom." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into God's Kingdom. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

[TRANSPONDER]

...People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus....

"Christian" doctrine can be wrong. I personally want to be loyal to God and his word, not to "Christian" doctrines.

As i think i mentioned before, you have invented you own religion, or at least denomination. And as I am sure i mentioned recently, it is all about the rightness of your own beliefs and never mind what the evidence, Bible or even Christian doctrine says, you have #Blind' Faith in the rightness of whatever you believe and are denialist about everything else. Such people (you are not alone by any means) of course think, if they deny everything, they win.

[TRANSPONDER]

Without works faith is meaningless, one is not really faithful (loyal) to God, if it doesn't show also in his actions.

So your answer is D)?

My answer is other, God saves those who are righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
My defense is on God, who saves the upright of heart.
Ps. 7:10

And here is one way to become righteous:

Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see God's Kingdom." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into God's Kingdom. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

You seem to contradict at least what you appeared to argue to me. Don't you agree that those quotes about Righteousness through Faith, not through works, through being 'born again' (tumbling into Faith in Jesusgod, and not about good deeds. Faith in Jesus saves, doing good doesn't.

[POI]

Without works faith is meaningless, one is not really faithful (loyal) to God, if it doesn't show also in his actions.

So your answer is D)?

My answer is other, God saves those who are righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
My defense is on God, who saves the upright of heart.
Ps. 7:10

And here is one way to become righteous:

Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see God's Kingdom." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into God's Kingdom. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

The objective of this thread is to demonstrate that the Bible is NOT clear, as to the instructions for being admitted into heaven. As I stated prior, it's really no different than giving instruction on how to achieve admittance into a club. In some cases, the club may be ambiguous too. Meaning, if it is a very exclusive club, the rule(s) may not be the same for all. Maybe this is also the case for admittance into Heaven? I've asked earnest Christians how one gets into Heaven. I get a wide variety of answers, or non-answers. WHY? Is it because......

1) like the exclusive club, maybe the rule(s) are not the same for all?
2) the instructions are not clear?
3) the bible is clear, but many/most earnest Christians are confused?

So far, I would say answer 2). Why? In some places, scripture states belief is all that is needed, with no mention of works. In other areas, Jesus tells followers humans will be granted access by their works, and no mention of one's faith/belief.

Below is a summation of Christian contributors:

How does one get into Heaven?

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)?.?.?.?.?.?.?

What verse/verses tells us what is required to receive admittance into Heaven?

Further, once we can all agree which is the right answer, then maybe we can then discuss how much of each is required in B) and/or C), if one or both are required, or other?

************************

1213, please note you are basically the last one standing. The rest have bailed. I think the silence is deafening. I think they too realize the answer is not clear, and have opted out. I also doubt any of the other observing Christians agree with your assessment.

[1213]

...The objective of this thread is to demonstrate that the Bible is NOT clear...

Ok, if that was the point, I can agree that it is not clear for you. To me it is clear.

...
So far, I would say answer 2). Why? In some places, scripture states belief is all that is needed, with no mention of works. In other areas, Jesus tells followers humans will be granted access by their works, and no mention of one's faith/belief.
...

It seems to me that the problem here is that you don't understand that all the scriptures are just part of a bigger idea. For some reason you seem to want to see that it must be only about one line, when in reality all the lines are required to understand the matter correctly. And to be fair, I think the same problem is for many Christians also, they find one line that they like and then think the others can be ignored.

The key to understand this matter is that eternal life is promised only for righteous. God saves those who are righteous. And if person is righteous, it comes visible in actions, righteous person does righteous actions. The actions, like being faithful, tells what kind of person one is.

Maybe the meaning of being righteous and works could be easier to understand with this example:
A man arrives to a house with a car. Did the car bring him to the house, or did the man bring the car to the house? Obviously car has no will of its own, so it came because of the man and the answer is that the man brought the car. Now, basically the same is with all actions of people. Actions have no mind of their own, they don't happen without a person making it happen. Therefore the mind that makes the actions happen, is the meaningful thing. And if a person has a righteous mind, it will produce righteous actions. If person doesn't have those righteous actions, it is a problem, because it tells then that the person is not righteous. So, the Biblical teaching about this is shortly:

1. There is no action human can do to be saved.
2. Eternal life is a gift for those who are righteous. Could be said also, God saves those who are righteous.
3. If person is righteous, it comes visible in actions. Righteous person does righteous actions.
4. If person has righteous actions, he can be counted righteous and saved, not because of the actions itself, but because the actions tells that the person is righteous and therefore worthy of the gift.

[1213]

....
You seem to contradict at least what you appeared to argue to me. Don't you agree that those quotes about Righteousness through Faith, not through works, through being 'born again' (tumbling into Faith in Jesusgod, and not about good deeds. Faith in Jesus saves, doing good doesn't.

Faith and works only tell is person righteous. And if person is righteous, then God saves him.

[1213]

...People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus....

"Christian" doctrine can be wrong. I personally want to be loyal to God and his word, not to "Christian" doctrines.

As i think i mentioned before, you have invented you own religion, or at least denomination...

I think I just remain in what is said in the Bible, nothing of it is written by me. But, if you think I ignore something from the Bible, please tell what it is.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to 1213 in post #466]

That's where it comes apart. It's like prayer, you see. One can be fooled by claiming the good is answered prayer and the good actions are the Righteous person. But what of those who don't get prayers answered and are not terribly righteous in their actions. Though they are very good at covering it up, faking it, and claiming what's bad (coercion, authoritarianism and exploitation - read Rachel Slick's deconversion) is all to the Good.

The claim becomes not validated by the reality and comes down to Faith and counting the hits and ignoring the misses.

...People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus....

"Christian" doctrine can be wrong. I personally want to be loyal to God and his word, not to "Christian" doctrines.

As i think i mentioned before, you have invented you own religion, or at least denomination...

I think I just remain in what is said in the Bible, nothing of it is written by me. But, if you think I ignore something from the Bible, please tell what it is.

I believe it was pointed out before. Paul citing Abraham's belief being Righteousness. You rightly pointed out it read that he believed what God said, but that implies the belief in God to start with It was not his actions that would save him but the belief. This was the case with the Law - it would not save, but stop people from straying into sinful actions. The Belief in God was the thing that would save them and Paul switched that to belief in Jesus which would also wipe out the sin to start with. But you had to believe in Jesus. Just being good would not save non - Christians.

Of course this is not set out as such in the Bible, other than in quotes like 'none come to the father but by me' and one can then interpret that as being doing the good things he said to do. Anyone can pick a quote to suit themselves.

The thing here is that faith in Jesus is what saves in Christianity and works only stop one losing grace by being so bad that pretentance is not enough and they have to be thrown under the bus as 'not Real Christians'.

It is invalid, pal of ours to make it a matter of selected Biblequotes. But the fact remains that your doctrine is not mainstream Christian belief and you have invented your own religion, or denomination, anyway.

....
You seem to contradict at least what you appeared to argue to me. Don't you agree that those quotes about Righteousness through Faith, not through works, through being 'born again' (tumbling into Faith in Jesusgod, and not about good deeds. Faith in Jesus saves, doing good doesn't.

Faith and works only tell is person righteous. And if person is righteous, then God saves him.

Isn't that what I was saying all along? Godfaith (and the right kind)(mis what saves. The works (it seems) are only the outward manifestation of that God/Jesus faith and they do not save in themselves. If that were the case and only good deeds saved, I...no, I mean We...would only need a sound moral code (1) and God (of any religion, or none) would save those who did the best, never mind whether they beleived in this or that religion or none.

(1) no, there's where it comes apart - the Bible is NOT a valid moral code today. Once it was the best...for its' time. Now, not so much.

[POI]

...The objective of this thread is to demonstrate that the Bible is NOT clear...

Ok, if that was the point, I can agree that it is not clear for you. To me it is clear.

It's not clear for any of the ones who have contributed, as they ALL have selected a differing answer than you. But of course, you are right. Just like they are right. I instead blame the writers of the Bible, as it is not clear. You arrogantly assume your translation is the right one. Which is essentially what many Christians do. And yet, an evidence-based case can be made for more than one option. As I stated prior, seems the Bible writers can be straight forward, when they choose to be. If I ask many Christians if murder is wrong, the answers will be unified. However, when I ask Christians what it takes to reach Heaven, arguably one of the most important topics, the Bible is convoluted - even among the earnest. The rest of your response below is just more of your arrogance shining through.

Jesus opted not to make his instruction clear. As I stated prior, this is why none of you agree, and all have bailed out on this topic.