Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #70]

Yes, the USA should take over Canada if they start a war and lose.

Should all countries give back land that was taken in war?

You need to study history of the problems Iseral as had with so called Palestine and other Muslim countries. Iseral did no occupied any land until after they were attacked and resulted in the 1967 war. But, Isarel was attacked many times before 1967. So, I guess Iseral occupying some land was not the reason they had many citizens killed before 1967. So your thing about the occupation is false. Now what about intelligence? Lets say Iseral knew that there was going to a a major attack. What should it have done? Bombed Palestine in hopes that they would not then attack? Then people would say that they attacked for no reason. So, answer me this. What were they to do if they knew there was to be a major rocket attack?

[AgnosticBoy]

Watching a pro Palestinian protest, I hear people calling Israel a totalitarian government, while also failing to realize that Palestine also functions as one, as well. When there's that hypocrisy, I have to question if people are really against totalitarian governments, or are they only against it when it's Israel? I think a lot of that double standard comes from people following groups that offer selective details leading people to think that "occupation" is the only way to be totalitarian, or that no other human rights abuses abuse matter.

Mistreating religious minorities, LGBT, going after free speech, and a host of other things that the Palestinian nation is accused of, are all also human right abuses. Palestinian nation is not a democracy. If anything, barring charges of occupation, Israel is more of a Democracy than a lot of the other nations surrounding them.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #71

Yes, the USA should take over Canada if they start a war and lose.

Should all countries give back land that was taken in war?

Think of the problems it could prevent.

"According to French and British wishes, the Treaty of Versailles subjected Germany to strict punitive measures. The Treaty required the new German Government to surrender approximately 10 percent of its prewar territory in Europe and all of its overseas possessions. It placed the harbor city of Danzig (now Gdansk) and the coal-rich Saarland under the administration of the League of Nations, and allowed France to exploit the economic resources of the Saarland until 1935. It limited the German Army and Navy in size, and allowed for the trial of Kaiser Wilhelm II and a number of other high-ranking German officials as war criminals. Under the terms of Article 231 of the Treaty, the Germans accepted responsibility for the war and the liability to pay financial reparations to the Allies. The Inter-Allied Commission determined the amount and presented its findings in 1921. The amount they determined was 132 billion gold Reichmarks, or 32 billion U.S. dollars, on top of the initial $5 billion payment demanded by the Treaty. Germans grew to resent the harsh conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles."

https://history.state.gov/milestones/19 ... aris-peace

Iseral did no occupied any land until after they were attacked and resulted in the 1967 war. But, Isarel was attacked many times before 1967.

"The first war (194849) began when Israel declared itself an independent state following the United Nations partition of Palestine. Protesting this move, five Arab countriesEgypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syriaattacked Israel. The conflict ended with Israel gaining considerable territory."

https://www.britannica.com/summary/Arab-Israeli-wars

Lets say Iseral knew that there was going to a a major attack. What should it have done? Bombed Palestine in hopes that they would not then attack? Then people would say that they attacked for no reason. So, answer me this. What were they to do if they knew there was to be a major rocket attack?

How about evacuating the area to be struck* and shooting the rockets down with all the fancy military equipment they get from the US?

*(If not evacuation, then at least adequate protection. If Hamas can dig tunnels** all over the place, Israel can build underground shelters.)

And end the occupation.

**(And once Israel shuts all those tunnels down, Hamas will run out of munitions and have to surrender.)

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #72

Watching a pro Palestinian protest, I hear people calling Israel a totalitarian government, while also failing to realize that Palestine also functions as one, as well. When there's that hypocrisy, I have to question if people are really against totalitarian governments, or are they only against it when it's Israel? I think a lot of that double standard comes from people following groups that offer selective details leading people to think that "occupation" is the only way to be totalitarian, or that no other human rights abuses abuse matter.

Occupation isn't the only way to be totalitarian or the only human rights abuse which matters.

But it's definitely one way and one which matters.


By the way----Why do you put the word occupation in quotation marks as if the Israeli presence in the Palestinian Territories weren't an occupation? It is, according to the UN.

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #73]

So, because Muslims want to kill all the Jews there should live in tunnels?

Again, I will ask why you support terrorists? You support Palestine and Palestine terrorists attacked Iseral killing manly civilians.

You also know the Palestine people supported the Nazis during the war? I guess that is where they got the idea all Jews need to die.

You do agree the only Muslims and not Jewish people kill babies and civilians using suicide bombers.

Tell me the last time Palestine had elections?

[AgnosticBoy]

By the way----Why do you put the word occupation in quotation marks as if the Israeli presence in the Palestinian Territories weren't an occupation? It is, according to the UN.

It's because some people define the "occupation" differently. Some might consider it an occupation just with a large number of Jews being on the land. So their solution is to get rid of all of the Jews. Others may not see the Jews being on the land as an occupation, but rather it's the way that they occupy the land, which is disproportionately in terms of the amount of land and the way they are governing it. I see it as an occupation in the latter sense.

I don't accept the first type because it is disputable. For instance, would we go by who last owned the land, which was the Arabs, or do we go by who owned the land first, in which it seems the Jews owned the land before the Arabs did, but they also suffered from their land being taken over.

[LittleNipper]

Perhaps there is a solution, but it is a bitter pill and many will not wish to regard; however, I do suggest that everyone watch this video and imagine yourself in this man's shoes:

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #75

So, because Muslims want to kill all the Jews there should live in tunnels?

You didn't ask about where Jews should live. You asked about what Israel should do when expecting a rocket attack.

Again, I will ask why you support terrorists?

That's a loaded question.

You support Palestine and Palestine terrorists attacked Iseral killing manly civilians.

Believing in the rights of the Palestinian people doesn't mean supporting the actions of their government.

You also know the Palestine people supported the Nazis during the war?

Actually, I know that they didn't.

The Arabs of Palestine remained largely quiescent throughout the war. Amn al-usayn had fledby way of Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Italyto Germany, whence he broadcast appeals to his fellow Arabs to ally with the Axis powers against Britain and Zionism. Yet the mufti failed to rally Palestinian Arabs to the Axis cause. Although some supported Germany, the majority supported the Allies, and approximately 23,000 Arabs enlisted in the British forces (especially in the Arab Legion).

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palest ... -and-after

You do agree the only Muslims and not Jewish people kill babies and civilians using suicide bombers.

I do not agree that "only Muslims" kill with suicide bombers.

I agree that only terrorists kill with suicide bombers.

Tell me the last time Palestine had elections?

The election yielded a shock victory for Hamas, which won the most seats with some 44 percent of the vote. Lara Friedman, president of the Foundation for Middle East Peace, which advocates for rapprochement and peace between Israelis and Palestinians, recently observed that in no single district in Gaza did Hamas win a majority of votes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... ne-israel/


In other words, Hamas absolute rule of Gaza is not what the Palestinians voted for back in 2006. In fact, since the median age of Gazans is 18, half of Hamas subjects werent even born when the election took place. Since they have known no alternative, have absorbed little information but Hamas propaganda, and have witnessed periodic outbursts of violent conflict with Israel throughout their lives, it is impossible to know what they really think about their rulers.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... ction.html

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #78]

What is so hard about answering the question do you support terrorists? It is not at all complicated. I take you do since you will not answer.

Why do not believe that almost all terrorists are Muslims?

Saying Hamas started the war is similar to saying Democrats are not USA citizens. Hamas is the elected government of Palestine and therefore they are Palestine citizens, I.E. Palestine attacked Iseral on Oct 7th.

You never did answer the question how Iseral should have responded to the attack on Oct 7th by Palestine were Palestine killed mainly civilians and have taken many as hostages.

It is simply a religious war. Muslims want Islam to be the world religion.

Does Israel have a right to protect her citizens from Muslim attacks?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #79

What is so hard about answering the question do you support terrorists? It is not at all complicated. I take you do since you will not answer.

Your question wasn't, "Do you support terrorists"? Your question was, "Why do you support terrorists?"

Why do not believe that almost all terrorists are Muslims?

If they're terrorists, then they're not Muslims even if they think they are.

Saying Hamas started the war is similar to saying Democrats are not USA citizens. Hamas is the elected government of Palestine and therefore they are Palestine citizens, I.E. Palestine attacked Iseral on Oct 7th.

You must believe that governments always do what their citizens want them to.

The soldiers who carried out the My Lai massacre in Vietnam were USA citizens. So why did the USA carry out the My Lai massacre?

You never did answer the question how Iseral should have responded to the attack on Oct 7th by Palestine were Palestine killed mainly civilians and have taken many as hostages.

I suggested a course of action for such a scenario, but getting out of such a situation is a lot harder than not getting into it in the first place, isn't it?

It is simply a religious war. Muslims want Islam to be the world religion.

It's not simply a religious war. Tens of thousands of Palestinians were displaced to make room for a Jewish state, a move made without adequate forethought and planning, and the fallout is still affecting things today.

As for wanting a world religion, what Christian denomination doesn't want Christianity to be the world religion?

Does Israel have a right to protect her citizens from Muslim attacks?

Every country has a right to protect its citizens from any attacks, but no country has a right to control another country with an authoritarian occupation.