Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[TRANSPONDER]

If the title 'Son of God' mean a human,then we are all sons of God.

In Bible children of God are defined like this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

...Jesus was the begotten son of God and the Muslim religion, following the Quran says not. ..

If that is true, then Quran is contradictory and I reject it because of that. Can't take seriously a book that tells, believe Jesus and at the same time says, no, don't actually believe Jesus.

If you deny it too, well and good.So do I. But you have then invented your own Christianity. I haven't.

I think I just remain in what is said in the Bible.

You remain in faithbased denial and continue to be a Good bad example of the irrationality of Religious belief. You remain in your own take and interpretation of what is in the Bible, backed up with hardly relevant Biblequotes. The quote from John misses the point about my argument that Righteousness is either Faith in God/Jesus or is not going to save anyone by good behavior, but can lose salvation (earned through faith) by bad behavior.

Your argument about the Quran shows clearly the problem with your faithbased thinking. In fact calling the Quran 'Contradictory' is not only false but dishonest. That it contradicts Christian claims doesn't discredit it as 'contradictory' in the sense of contradicting itself - which the Bible does, incidentally. Arguing wrongly can be forgiven, but arguing dishonestly cannot. That is not what I'd see as Righteous behavior, but only in the Faithbased sense of lying for Jesus. But then one can forgive, because that is what religious faithbased thinking does to decent people - it makes then do unrighteous things.

[1213]

....In fact calling the Quran 'Contradictory' is not only false but dishonest...

If it says "believe Jesus" and also "don't believe Jesus", it is contradictory. I know it says "believe Jesus". So, perhaps the claim that it says "don't believe Jesus" is then false.

[1213]

... It is unclear for you too...

No, to me Bible is clear. And I think the problem is not the Bible, but that people love more their own doctrines than what Bible actually says.

[TRANSPONDER]

....In fact calling the Quran 'Contradictory' is not only false but dishonest...

If it says "believe Jesus" and also "don't believe Jesus", it is contradictory. I know it says "believe Jesus". So, perhaps the claim that it says "don't believe Jesus" is then false.

You don't get to say what is a contradiction and what is not. Neither do you correctly get to quotemine the Quran out of context and pretend it means what it does not. The context is that while the Quran does accept the person of Jesus as a prophet of God, it does not accept Jesus as begotten (as the Christian doctrine has it) son of God nor - specifically - that he died on the cross and was resurrected. That is why it contradicts the Bible and Christianity, not your attempt to claim that it should say 'Don't believe in Jesus' or it of course does not disagree with the Bible or Christianity.

I have been warned about making finger pointing remarks, but the problem with your methods of apologetics should be obvious to anyone and everyone.

But don't feel bad (not that you will - faithbased denialism never does) because this is probably not You, yourself, but is what Biblefaith does to good people.

... It is unclear for you too...

No, to me Bible is clear. And I think the problem is not the Bible, but that people love more their own doctrines than what Bible actually says.

From what I have seen so far, that is pretty standard pot - kettle projection. The Bible -apologists have their own doctrines in their heads (and will deny mainstream Christianity if they disagree) and they will fiddle and deny what the Bible actually says, though it may require some work to assemble the evidence - it would be nice if the Bible actually said "The evangelists based their gospels on Paul's ideas", but it doesn't, not surprisingly, so one has to point out that Paul thought these concepts up rather than getting them from the NT via the disciples.

I've said it before, but I think that atheists show more respect for the Bible than Bible - believers do, as they at least take the Bible for what it says rather than insist that it actually says what they would prefer it to say. Just take recent examples about claiming daylight was a sort of cosmic radiation when Genesis says specifically morning and evening. Or God endorses slavery, of course.

Or the attempt to claim that Mary Magdalene split off from the rest of the women and never ran into Jesus as Matthew says 'they' did. The Bible says nothing like that, but it is stuff made Up, let us be clear, so as to paper over a great crack in Gospel credibility. But when Bible critics do it - like pointing out that the synoptics other than Luke know nothing about the Penitent thief, Luke knows nothing about the flight to Egypt or the walking on water and nobody but Luke knows of Antipas involved in the trial, nobody but Matthew knows about the tomb guard, nobody but John knows about the raising of Lazarus and Mark doesn't know (or he'd have explained it as the supposed first gospel) that Jesus was seen alive after the crucifixion; but, when we do it, as I say, that is twitted mendaciously as 'our own doctrines' and not what the Bible actually says.

They Bible actually does 'say' all those contradictions, but true, it does not say "John contradicts the other gospels over the transfiguration" but you wouldn't expect it to. One has to do a bit of comparison work, but it does not involve masking stuff up or even lying about what the Bible said as i saw recently in connection with the death of Judas.

Atheists respect the text; Bible apologists don't.

[POI]

... It is unclear for you too...

No, to me Bible is clear. And I think the problem is not the Bible, but that people love more their own doctrines than what Bible actually says.

Well, I have absolutely no skin in the game, which means I do not 'love my own doctrine' because I do not have one. I simply read where the Bible directs readers to more than one way. Please remember, I'm asking you a very specific question. I'm not asking you if Jesus hates murder, adultery, trespassing, etc. All readers would agree there. However, I've given you examples for alternatives for being saved, and you simply ignore them. Now please also address the parts you skipped (i.e.):

If 'righteousness' equals 'faith', then the answer is B), not F). But either way, most others think the answer is D) anyways. You are in direct conflict with many others, who also claim to know the Bible every bit as much as you and also believe in it as much as you. This is the entire point of this thread. The Bible is not clear. The proof is in the pudding. None of you agree. The God you worship is the purveyor of confusion.

[1213]

...However, I've given you examples for alternatives for being saved,...

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

If 'righteousness' equals 'faith', then the answer is B), not F). But either way, most others think the answer is D) anyways. You are in direct conflict with many others, who also claim to know the Bible every bit as much as you and also believe in it as much as you. This is the entire point of this thread. The Bible is not clear. The proof is in the pudding. None of you agree. The God you worship is the purveyor of confusion.

Hmmm... I think the problem is that you offer too simplistic view of the matter and also make baseless claims. I think this should be simple, everyone can read what is said in the Bible. If you can show with Bible scriptures that there is some contradiction, then I would understand your problem, but I don't think you can really do that.

I don't think you even want to understand, but here is my answer one more time for the opining question. If you think this is not what the Bible tells, please explain why.

- How does one get to Heaven?

One can't do anything to earn it. Everyone is invited. But, if you don't have the right "clothes", you can't stay.

And Jesus answering, again spake to them in similes, saying,The reign of the heavens was likened to a man, a king, who made marriage-feasts for his son, and he sent forth his servants to call those having been called to the marriage-feasts, and they were not willing to come. Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Say to those who have been called: Lo, my dinner I prepared, my oxen and the fatlings have been killed, and all things are ready, come ye to the marriage-feasts; and they, having disregarded it , went away, the one to his own field, and the other to his merchandise; and the rest, having laid hold on his servants, did insult and slay them . And the king having heard, was wroth, and having sent forth his soldiers, he destroyed those murderers, and their city he set on fire; then saith he to his servants, The marriage-feast indeed is ready, and those called were not worthy, be going, then, on to the cross-ways, and as many as ye may find, call ye to the marriage-feasts. And those servants, having gone forth to the ways, did gather all, as many as they found, both bad and good, and the marriage-feast apartment was filled with those reclining. And the king having come in to view those reclining, saw there a man not clothed with clothing of the marriage-feast, and he saith to him, Comrade, how didst thou come in hither, not having clothing of the marriage-feast? and he was speechless. Then said the king to the ministrants, Having bound his feet and hands, take him up and cast forth to the outer darkness, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth; for many are called, and few chosen.'
Matt. 22:1-14

So, what are the right clothes for the party? I think the answer is in these:

the night did advance, and the day came nigh; let us lay aside, therefore, the works of the darkness, and let us put on the armour of the light; as in day-time, let us walk becomingly; not in revellings and drunkennesses, not in chamberings and lasciviousnesses, not in strife and emulation;
Romans 13:12-13

Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering, forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any one with any one may have a quarrel, as also the Christ did forgive you--so also ye; and above all these things, have love, which is a bond of the perfection,
Col. 3:12-14

Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about in truth, and having put on the breastplate of the righteousness,
Eph. 6:14

And that comes to the idea, eternal life is for righteous. And this is why, eternal life, or heaven is promised for those who are righteous. It is not a reward, it is a gift. You can't do anything to earn it.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Do you know some Bible scripture that is in contradiction with this? Please show it and explain why?

[TRANSPONDER]

"And that comes to the idea, eternal life is for righteous. And this is why, eternal life, or heaven is promised for those who are righteous. It is not a reward, it is a gift. You can't do anything to earn it."

But isn't that what I was arguing? It is Faith and not deeds that ears salvation? You tried to argue that Righteousness was through doing what God said, though you had to cite the OT to do it and even then doing what God ordered (like killing you own son if ordered) depended on Faith in God. Doing what God ordered because the Bible was supposed a good moral guide would not (in Christian theology) save if one didn't believe in JesusGod. Faith is what saves, not works, and you pretty much says that above. "You can't do anything to earn it" You have to join the club and hope that's good enough.

[POI]

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

Here's another one. "15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16

It's clear that if someone has proselytized the messages to you, and you then believe and are baptized, you are saved. That's all! So the answer is B) or D) here, depending on if you consider baptism a 'work' or not?. But it says absolutely NOTHIING about being "righteous" here. Mark then soon ends, and that's it.

I don't think you even want to understand

Yes I do want to understand. But the book gives conflicting answers. Nobody, believers included, agree with you. (i.e.):

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)

I also explained, ad nauseum, Romans 3 and 4, and you ignore it. Righteousness equals faith alone, rendering the answer B).

[tam]

Peace to you,

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

Here's another one. "15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16

It's clear that if someone has proselytized the messages to you, and you then believe and are baptized, you are saved. That's all! So the answer is B) or D) here, depending on if you consider baptism a 'work' or not?. But it says absolutely NOTHIING about being "righteous" here. Mark then soon ends, and that's it.

I don't think you even want to understand

Yes I do want to understand. But the book gives conflicting answers. Nobody, believers included, agree with you. (i.e.):

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)

I also explained, ad nauseum, Romans 3 and 4, and you ignore it. Righteousness equals faith alone, rendering the answer B).

And if faith does not compel you to works, how is it truly faith?


As for the conclusion that people are worshiping a god of chaos... well, I guess that depends upon what god one is worshiping. The God and Father of Christ is not a God of chaos. But many people aren't listening to Him; because many people aren't turning to or listening to the One He sent us: His Son (the Light). So yes, you will get various answers to your questions... though not as much variety as you have implied (at least not on this matter). Grace is not in conflict with faith, especially considering that faith is itself a gift; and faith will naturally compel works (or it might not have been faith to begin with).

Grace and faith and works are all connected.

I don't think you will find many people who will disagree with that.


Peace again to you.

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

Here's another one. "15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16

It's clear that if someone has proselytized the messages to you, and you then believe and are baptized, you are saved. That's all! So the answer is B) or D) here, depending on if you consider baptism a 'work' or not?. But it says absolutely NOTHIING about being "righteous" here. Mark then soon ends, and that's it.

I don't think you even want to understand

Yes I do want to understand. But the book gives conflicting answers. Nobody, believers included, agree with you. (i.e.):

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)

I also explained, ad nauseum, Romans 3 and 4, and you ignore it. Righteousness equals faith alone, rendering the answer B).

And if faith does not compel you to works, how is it truly faith?


As for the conclusion that people are worshiping a god of chaos... well, I guess that depends upon what god one is worshiping. The God and Father of Christ is not a God of chaos. But many people aren't listening to Him; because many people aren't turning to or listening to the One He sent us: His Son (the Light). So yes, you will get various answers to your questions... though not as much variety as you have implied (at least not on this matter). Grace is not in conflict with faith, especially considering that faith is itself a gift; and faith will naturally compel works (or it might not have been faith to begin with).

Grace and faith and works are all connected.

I don't think you will find many people who will disagree with that.


Peace again to you.

I agree; Faith doth compell thee to works, or translate the Theist to English - we do things as we do because of our mindset.

But the point is that the deeds in themselves do not save, but the Faith doth, or that is the Christian doctrine as I understand it, and those who have devised their own doctrines may hope that there is a saving god out there who agrees with them.