Please help me understand Christianity

[Compassionist]

The Biblical God allegedly made all the angels and all the biological organisms including the first pair of humans. Why didn't God make everything he made equally all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful? That would have prevented all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. All-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings harm no one through malevolence or ignorance or incompetence. Also, no one and nothing can harm them. That would have been the best outcome for everyone. Instead of doing this, despite being allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful, the Biblical God allegedly made Adam and Eve ignorant about Good and Evil and allegedly told them not to eat the fruits from the Tree of Knowledge. How can eating fruits make one knowledgeable about good and evil? When Adam and Eve allegedly ate the forbidden fruits, God punished them and all the other biological organisms by kicking them out of Eden. He also punished all of their descendants by not letting them live in Eden. Why punish all the other organisms for Adam and Eve's mistake? Why punish their descendants? He also punished Eve and all her daughters with painful childbirth. How is any of these actions fair and morally correct? I consider all of these actions by the Biblical God to be totally evil. Also, the whole idea of Jesus dying for only three days in order to save us from an eternity in hell is absurd. Why didn't God just forgive Adam and Eve? How can the death of one individual be the redemption of all Christians? What about all the non-humans and non-Christians? Jesus was dead for only three days. He didn't spend an eternity in hell. How can being dead for only three days be the substitution for people being in hell for an eternity? Do non-human organisms also go to hell for not accepting Jesus as their Saviour? What about those who died before Jesus allegedly died on the cross? What happens to people who never heard of Jesus or have heard of Jesus but believe that he is not the Saviour (e.g. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Agnostics, Atheists, etc.) How can it be ethical to punish people with eternity in hell for not accepting Jesus as Saviour? Christianity does not make any sense at all. Please help me understand Christianity. Thank you very much.

[1213]

...He commands genocides, rape, enslaving and robbery in the Bible...

God doesn't command rape. Why you make such false accusation, when it ruins your credibility?

Now you are reinterpreting what the word "earth" means. The word "continent" doesn't appear in the Bible. Even if it did, continents don't have foundations or cornerstones. Buildings have foundations and cornerstones.

By what the Bible tells, originally our planet was covered with water, then God stretched dry land over and area of that water. That fits to the description of a continent. And, because it was done like that, there was edges that can be called foundations, because they supported the original continent that was on top of water in large area.

And God saith, `Let the waters under the heavens be collected unto one place, and let the dry land be seen:' and it is so. And God calleth to the dry land `Earth,' and to the collection of the waters He hath called `Seas;' and God seeth that it is good.
Gen. 1:9-10

To Him spreading the earth over the waters, For to the age is His kindness.
Ps. 136:6

God is not love. If God was love, why didn't he make all the beings he allegedly created, all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful?

Probably because it would not be good.

God could have prevented all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths but he chose not to.

I think He did that originally. But, He gave also freedom, which led to this world where all kind of evil things are possible. I think one sign of goodness and love is to give freedom.

God's alleged omniscience and omnipotence make him omniculpable. You have called God the only one to be good. How is he good when 99.9% of the species are extinct?

Firstly, why should I even believe that 99,9%? I have no good reason to believe it. Secondly, He is good, because He has given life. There is no good reason to demand Him to give more than what He has given.

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15, The Bible (ESV). No ethical being would create hell to punish sentient humans. Hell is eternal torture. That is totally unjustifiable. Hell is an infinite punishment for finite "crimes". That is totally evil and disproportionate to the alleged "crimes". Hell is yet another reason I consider the Biblical God to be evil.

Bible tells hell is a place where soul and body are destroyed. I don't think those who are utterly destroyed feel or do anything.

Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [=hell].
Matt. 10:28

However, if I have understood correctly, and some people live eternally in hell, although eternal life is promised only for righteous, I think the suffering comes from the people. The people have rejected God and get exactly what they want. And if person rejects God, it leads to suffering that is caused by themselves, not by God.

Why should God rescue people to be with Him, when the people don't really like or want that?

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

If so, please explain what makes you deny evolution.

I think it is not proven and there is no good evidence for it to be true. It looks like modern mother earth cult.

The Bible does not say that the animal was a philosophical zombie. I have never met an animal that was not sentient. Hence it is logical to conclude that the animal was sentient. The Biblical God demands burnt offerings many times in the Bible.

Ok, but what bout conscious. Do you think animals are conscious beings that have own will? Or are they only like programmed machines that do what they are programmed to do? In case of humans, you seem to think people are like robots, have no free will and do what the environment or something else determines them to do. I think such beings are basically zombies.

Please show a scripture where God commands burnt offerings?

[Compassionist]

...He commands genocides, rape, enslaving and robbery in the Bible...

God doesn't command rape. Why you make such false accusation, when it ruins your credibility?

Now you are reinterpreting what the word "earth" means. The word "continent" doesn't appear in the Bible. Even if it did, continents don't have foundations or cornerstones. Buildings have foundations and cornerstones.

By what the Bible tells, originally our planet was covered with water, then God stretched dry land over and area of that water. That fits to the description of a continent. And, because it was done like that, there was edges that can be called foundations, because they supported the original continent that was on top of water in large area.

And God saith, `Let the waters under the heavens be collected unto one place, and let the dry land be seen:' and it is so. And God calleth to the dry land `Earth,' and to the collection of the waters He hath called `Seas;' and God seeth that it is good.
Gen. 1:9-10

To Him spreading the earth over the waters, For to the age is His kindness.
Ps. 136:6

God is not love. If God was love, why didn't he make all the beings he allegedly created, all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful?

Probably because it would not be good.

God could have prevented all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths but he chose not to.

I think He did that originally. But, He gave also freedom, which led to this world where all kind of evil things are possible. I think one sign of goodness and love is to give freedom.

God's alleged omniscience and omnipotence make him omniculpable. You have called God the only one to be good. How is he good when 99.9% of the species are extinct?

Firstly, why should I even believe that 99,9%? I have no good reason to believe it. Secondly, He is good, because He has given life. There is no good reason to demand Him to give more than what He has given.

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15, The Bible (ESV). No ethical being would create hell to punish sentient humans. Hell is eternal torture. That is totally unjustifiable. Hell is an infinite punishment for finite "crimes". That is totally evil and disproportionate to the alleged "crimes". Hell is yet another reason I consider the Biblical God to be evil.

Bible tells hell is a place where soul and body are destroyed. I don't think those who are utterly destroyed feel or do anything.

Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [=hell].
Matt. 10:28

However, if I have understood correctly, and some people live eternally in hell, although eternal life is promised only for righteous, I think the suffering comes from the people. The people have rejected God and get exactly what they want. And if person rejects God, it leads to suffering that is caused by themselves, not by God.

Why should God rescue people to be with Him, when the people don't really like or want that?

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

If so, please explain what makes you deny evolution.

I think it is not proven and there is no good evidence for it to be true. It looks like modern mother earth cult.

The Bible does not say that the animal was a philosophical zombie. I have never met an animal that was not sentient. Hence it is logical to conclude that the animal was sentient. The Biblical God demands burnt offerings many times in the Bible.

Ok, but what bout conscious. Do you think animals are conscious beings that have own will? Or are they only like programmed machines that do what they are programmed to do? In case of humans, you seem to think people are like robots, have no free will and do what the environment or something else determines them to do. I think such beings are basically zombies.

Please show a scripture where God commands burnt offerings?

Yes, God commands his followers to rape. I am quoting from: https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/

Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible.

So grab your Bibles and follow along as I show you all the nasty rapes that your priests and preachers don’t want to tell you about. Note that in many places in the Bible there are references to “taking a wife”. Don’t be fooled into thinking that these were voluntary marriages. This first quote clearly shows that murder and force were used to “take” these wives.

1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn’t give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans “property”.

6) David’s Punishment – Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God’s “Forgiveness” (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” [The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

The verses you quoted about the formation of land does not match what we know from science. Please see https://education.nationalgeographic.or ... ion-earth/

Why would making all beings equally all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful and the owner of an infinite number of universes each be not good? Such beings would never harm anyone through malevolence, ignorance or incompetence. Such beings would not be harmed by anyone or anything either. It's the perfect way to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths.

No living thing is free from causality. Did you read the books I asked you to? Did you watch the videos I asked you to? You keep saying that God gave us freedom when we are not free. I asked you to do the 7 tasks which would demonstrate that you are indeed free but you failed to do the tasks because you are not actually free even though you think you are free.

I am quoting from https://www.encyclopedia.com/daily/is-i ... e-extinct/

According to estimations about 99.9% of all species are extinct. Scientists have no way of confirming how many species of animals have lived and are living because there just simply is too many. Even knowing what we know about how fossils are created and the extinction rate of current species, there is no way to be sure about how many species are extinct. However, using information gathered by paleontologists and the history of evolution, it’s been estimated that 99.9% of all species are extinct.

That’s not all of the species living here on the Planet today. It’s actually of all the species who have lived on Earth at all. Knowing that life has somehow survived thru 5 mass extinctions, Scientists hypothesized how many species there could have been based on what they know about those extinctions and what happened before them.

According to those estimates, about 10 million species have lived on the Earth and humans have only found evidence of about 1 million of them. Based on these estimates, it does seem that the claim 99.9% of species are extinct is actually true. However, there are naysayers. Some think the estimate of the number of species is actually closer to 6 million, making the percentage that is extinct much lower overall.

Are 99.9% of all species extinct?

Many researchers and scientists have concluded that it’s best to assume that less than a tenth of a percent of species that have lived on this Earth are alive on it today. Some say it’s a natural part of the evolution of a species and some say that the number of extinct species is growing rapidly and humans are to blame. Does this mean that more than 99.9% of all species are extinct?

Some professors and environmental studies experts say that could be true. According to Daniel Simberloff from the University of Tennessee, the Earth is in the middle of it’s 6th mass extinction. This means more than 99.9% of all species may go extinct. In this case, the truth is actually in the numbers. Extinction and endangerment rates are higher than normal and with nonsensical habitat destruction those numbers will only continue to grow.

Are more than 99.9% of all species extinct?

Since no one knows exactly how many species there was throughout history, it’s hard to say that more than 99.9% of all species are extinct. What they can say for certain is that more species are going extinct than what is considered normal. Even though the number of total species is hard to calculate, it seems easier to see changes in the rate of extinction.

Since 2005, numbers of extinct and endangered species have climbed at a higher rates than the “background rate” of extinction. According to some, most of the species have died out from natural causes but others have evidence that humans may be causing a mass extinction occurrence slowly and painfully. Birds being one of the species that proves this correct. In the last 500 years, over 128 species have disappeared while another 1200 are in serious danger of becoming extinct. Scientists say that humans caused the extinction of all but 3 of those species of birds.

There are contradictory verses in the Bible about hell. I am quoting from https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell

Revelation 21:8 ESV / 1,883 helpful votes
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Matthew 10:28 ESV / 1,671 helpful votes
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 25:46 ESV / 1,563 helpful votes
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV / 1,405 helpful votes
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Romans 6:23 ESV / 1,289 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 25:41 ESV / 1,234 helpful votes
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:15 ESV / 1,189 helpful votes
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 5:22 ESV / 1,134 helpful votes
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Revelation 14:11 ESV / 1,089 helpful votes
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 1,029 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Matthew 13:50 ESV / 982 helpful votes
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2 Peter 2:4 ESV / 902 helpful votes
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Revelation 20:14 ESV / 857 helpful votes
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Jude 1:7 ESV / 825 helpful votes
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 23:33 ESV / 755 helpful votes
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mark 9:43 ESV / 753 helpful votes
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Revelation 19:20 ESV / 729 helpful votes
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Matthew 5:29 ESV / 681 helpful votes
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Luke 16:19-31 ESV / 664 helpful votes
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

Luke 16:23 ESV / 636 helpful votes
And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Mark 9:48 ESV / 633 helpful votes
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Mark 9:43-48 ESV / 631 helpful votes
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Luke 12:5 ESV / 580 helpful votes
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Matthew 16:18 ESV / 574 helpful votes
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Hebrews 9:27 ESV / 567 helpful votes
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

John 3:36 ESV / 546 helpful votes
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Matthew 5:30 ESV / 521 helpful votes
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Acts 2:27 ESV / 516 helpful votes
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

Daniel 12:2 ESV / 497 helpful votes
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Psalm 16:10 ESV / 489 helpful votes
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.

Psalm 9:17 ESV / 481 helpful votes
The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

Matthew 8:12 ESV / 477 helpful votes
While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 13:42 ESV / 463 helpful votes
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 1:18 ESV / 455 helpful votes
And the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Matthew 3:12 ESV / 446 helpful votes
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Proverbs 15:24 ESV / 446 helpful votes
The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.

Matthew 18:9 ESV / 427 helpful votes
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Luke 10:15 ESV / 416 helpful votes
And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.

Proverbs 23:14 ESV / 414 helpful votes
If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

2 Peter 3:9 ESV / 413 helpful votes
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 413 helpful votes
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:13-14 ESV / 411 helpful votes
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Acts 2:31 ESV / 409 helpful votes
He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Jude 1:13 ESV / 405 helpful votes
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 14:10 ESV / 392 helpful votes
He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Luke 23:43 ESV / 379 helpful votes
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Matthew 13:41-42 ESV / 366 helpful votes
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Psalm 145:20 ESV / 364 helpful votes
The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.

Proverbs 15:11 ESV / 362 helpful votes
Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord; how much more the hearts of the children of man!

Hebrews 10:26-31 ESV / 358 helpful votes
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...

Psalm 139:8 ESV / 355 helpful votes
If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

Revelation 20:14-15 ESV / 349 helpful votes
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

James 3:6 ESV / 349 helpful votes
And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

John 5:29 ESV / 348 helpful votes
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Psalm 86:13 ESV / 343 helpful votes
For great is your steadfast love toward me; you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Revelation 20:1-15 ESV / 335 helpful votes
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. ...

Matthew 11:23 ESV / 332 helpful votes
And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Ezekiel 18:20 ESV / 332 helpful votes
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Matthew 18:8 ESV / 326 helpful votes
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

John 5:28-29 ESV / 325 helpful votes
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 7:13 ESV / 319 helpful votes
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Isaiah 66:24 ESV / 319 helpful votes
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Luke 16:24 ESV / 317 helpful votes
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Revelation 20:13-14 ESV / 315 helpful votes
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Mark 9:47 ESV / 308 helpful votes
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

Proverbs 9:18 ESV / 307 helpful votes
But he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of Sheol.

Revelation 20:13-15 ESV / 303 helpful votes
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Isaiah 14:9 ESV / 297 helpful votes
Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.

Revelation 20:6 ESV / 293 helpful votes
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Jeremiah 7:31 ESV / 292 helpful votes
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ESV / 286 helpful votes
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 20:4-6 ESV / 282 helpful votes
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Matthew 23:15 ESV / 277 helpful votes
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Isaiah 5:14 ESV / 277 helpful votes
Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her.

Matthew 24:51 ESV / 276 helpful votes
And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Ezekiel 31:17 ESV / 275 helpful votes
They also went down to Sheol with it, to those who are slain by the sword; yes, those who were its arm, who lived under its shadow among the nations.

John 5:28 ESV / 274 helpful votes
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 ESV / 269 helpful votes
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Jude 1:12-13 ESV / 268 helpful votes
These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Mark 9:45 ESV / 265 helpful votes
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:29-30 ESV / 264 helpful votes
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Luke 3:17 ESV / 263 helpful votes
His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Numbers 16:33 ESV / 258 helpful votes
So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 ESV / 257 helpful votes
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Ezekiel 18:4 ESV / 248 helpful votes
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Proverbs 27:20 ESV / 248 helpful votes
Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied, and never satisfied are the eyes of man.

Psalm 37:20 ESV / 222 helpful votes
But the wicked will perish; the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of the pastures; they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Isaiah 47:14 ESV / 216 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Behold, they are like stubble; the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!

God chooses people to send to heaven or hell. God predestines people to be saved or not saved. I am quoting from https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination

Ephesians 1:4-5 ESV / 526 helpful votes
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 445 helpful votes
He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Romans 8:29 ESV / 412 helpful votes
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:28-30 ESV / 384 helpful votes
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 15:16 ESV / 376 helpful votes
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 6:44 ESV / 341 helpful votes
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

2 Timothy 1:9 ESV / 276 helpful votes
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 1:11 ESV / 265 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Acts 13:48 ESV / 231 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 197 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Ephesians 1:11-12 ESV / 165 helpful votes
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 ESV / 121 helpful votes
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

Romans 9:11 ESV / 116 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 113 helpful votes
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 8:30 ESV / 112 helpful votes
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Matthew 24:31 ESV / 111 helpful votes
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV / 109 helpful votes
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Ephesians 2:10 ESV / 105 helpful votes
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Mark 13:20 ESV / 100 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Ephesians 1:1-23 ESV / 98 helpful votes
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Acts 4:28 ESV / 95 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
To do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Your statement about evolution shows your ignorance about evolution. Please see: https://basicbiology.net/biology-101/evolution which explains the basics.

As I explained before, organisms behave according to their genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Our choices are not free. Our choices are determined and constrained. That does not make us zombies or robots. A robot is not conscious but we are conscious. Zombies don't actually exist. A Philosophical Zombie is a being which behaves as if they are conscious but are not actually conscious - this is a hypothetical scenario. We don't know if Philosophical Zombies actually exist or not.

I am quoting some verses about burnt offering from: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Burnt-Offering

Deuteronomy 33:10
“They shall teach Your ordinances to Jacob,
And Your law to Israel.
They shall put incense before You,
And whole burnt offerings on Your altar.

1 Samuel 7:9
Samuel took a suckling lamb and offered it for a whole burnt offering to the Lord; and Samuel cried to the Lord for Israel and the Lord answered him.

Psalm 51:19
Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

Genesis 8:20
Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Genesis 22:2-8
He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance.

Numbers 28:19
You shall present an offering by fire, a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram and seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect.

Leviticus 23:12
Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the Lord.

Numbers 28:27
You shall offer a burnt offering for a soothing aroma to the Lord: two young bulls, one ram, seven male lambs one year old;

Numbers 29:2
You shall offer a burnt offering as a soothing aroma to the Lord: one bull, one ram, and seven male lambs one year old without defect;

Numbers 29:13
You shall present a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord: thirteen bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old, which are without defect;

You claimed that the Biblical God created life. Please prove that your claim is true. According to Hinduism, Brahma created the universe and living things, not the Biblical God.

[The Tanager]

I trust you have studied the other side to all these claims/arguments you listed (i.e.) the rebuttals to the Kalam, fine-tuning, morality, consciousness, etc? Assuming so, why do all the rebuttal arguments fail? Is it maybe instead because none of these arguments are what really makes you believe? Shameless plug to this thread --> http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=41274

I have, although I’m not done with it either because I’m always seeking truth and will continually listen to the other side in that search. There is always the chance that any of us, whatever our worldview, are undergoing confirmation bias and simply trying to rationally justify beliefs we truly hold for other reasons. We do the best we can and keep challenging our views.

[The Tanager]

The only thing that would convince me that a real and good God exists is if that God prevented all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths and made everyone equally all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful and the owner of an infinite number of universes each. Since that has not happened I remain convinced that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil.

Okay, I feel we need to focus this discussion between us; I simply think better that way. I think this is the crux right now. I think it relates to this issue: 1. Is it better to create a world with free will that ends up including evils or a world without free will that involves no suffering?

I think the first question we disagree on that is pertinent here is the definition of free will, to where we are talking past each other. We’ve got to come to agreement on the terms. I think you believe in a false dilemma. You’ve got two options in your mind (well, depending on what you think of randomness, but that may unnecessarily complicate things):

1. Determined/Constrained Will
2. Completely Free Will (to teleport, live without eating, etc.)

There is a third option:

3. Limited Free Will (affected by other factors…you can’t , influenced by them, but not determined by them)

Why isn't the third option an actual logical option? If you believe it is, then why do you reject it as true?

[Compassionist]

The only thing that would convince me that a real and good God exists is if that God prevented all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths and made everyone equally all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful and the owner of an infinite number of universes each. Since that has not happened I remain convinced that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil.

Okay, I feel we need to focus this discussion between us; I simply think better that way. I think this is the crux right now. I think it relates to this issue: 1. Is it better to create a world with free will that ends up including evils or a world without free will that involves no suffering?

I think the first question we disagree on that is pertinent here is the definition of free will, to where we are talking past each other. We’ve got to come to agreement on the terms. I think you believe in a false dilemma. You’ve got two options in your mind (well, depending on what you think of randomness, but that may unnecessarily complicate things):

1. Determined/Constrained Will
2. Completely Free Will (to teleport, live without eating, etc.)

There is a third option:

3. Limited Free Will (affected by other factors…you can’t , influenced by them, but not determined by them)

Why isn't the third option an actual logical option? If you believe it is, then why do you reject it as true?

Did you do the paternity test on the lock of hair from Jesus? "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." - Matthew 7:7-8, The Bible (NAB). So, all you need to do to obtain the hair is pray and you will get it. If you don't get it, then Jesus is a liar.

The term "Limited Free Will" is an oxymoron. One either has free will or does not have free will. Can one be partially in jail? No. One either is in jail or is not in jail. My genes determine the fact that I can't change my skin colour the way chameleons can. My genes don't just influence me. The word "influence" does not accurately describe what is happening here. The word "determine" accurately describes what is happening here.

Please see this video:

[The Tanager]

Did you do the paternity test on the lock of hair from Jesus? The term "Limited Free Will" is an oxymoron. One either has free will or does not have free will. Can one be partially in jail? No. One is either in jail or not.

I didn’t do the paternity test. I think it’s impossible and unnecessary. I think it’s a question we should revisit later in our discussion since it’s irrelevant to the free will debate. You had other good points that should be addressed in your previous posts as well, but I think focus will help us, if we both have the patience for it.

I agree one either has free will or doesn’t. The question is how we define free will. What definition do you want to use?

[Compassionist]

Did you do the paternity test on the lock of hair from Jesus? The term "Limited Free Will" is an oxymoron. One either has free will or does not have free will. Can one be partially in jail? No. One is either in jail or not.

I didn’t do the paternity test. I think it’s impossible and unnecessary. I think it’s a question we should revisit later in our discussion since it’s irrelevant to the free will debate. You had other good points that should be addressed in your previous posts as well, but I think focus will help us, if we both have the patience for it.

I agree one either has free will or doesn’t. The question is how we define free will. What definition do you want to use?

Jesus doesn't answer prayers even though he said in the Bible that he would. Therefore, Jesus is a liar. I used to be a Christian, and I used to pray. Not a single prayer was answered even though they were selfless prayers e.g. please prevent all future natural disasters such as cyclones, earthquakes, floods, volcanic eruptions, etc. My definition of free will is a will that is free from determinants and constraints. Do you agree? If not, what is your definition? I think it is pointless to debate free will when it is obvious that I don't have free will.

God chooses people to send to heaven or hell. God predestines people to be saved or not saved. I am quoting from https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination

Ephesians 1:4-5 ESV / 526 helpful votes
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 445 helpful votes
He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Romans 8:29 ESV / 412 helpful votes
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:28-30 ESV / 384 helpful votes
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 15:16 ESV / 376 helpful votes
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 6:44 ESV / 341 helpful votes
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

2 Timothy 1:9 ESV / 276 helpful votes
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 1:11 ESV / 265 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Acts 13:48 ESV / 231 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 197 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Ephesians 1:11-12 ESV / 165 helpful votes
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 ESV / 121 helpful votes
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

Romans 9:11 ESV / 116 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 113 helpful votes
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 8:30 ESV / 112 helpful votes
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Matthew 24:31 ESV / 111 helpful votes
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV / 109 helpful votes
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Ephesians 2:10 ESV / 105 helpful votes
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Mark 13:20 ESV / 100 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Ephesians 1:1-23 ESV / 98 helpful votes
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Acts 4:28 ESV / 95 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
To do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

[POI]

I trust you have studied the other side to all these claims/arguments you listed (i.e.) the rebuttals to the Kalam, fine-tuning, morality, consciousness, etc? Assuming so, why do all the rebuttal arguments fail? Is it maybe instead because none of these arguments are what really makes you believe? Shameless plug to this thread --> http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=41274

I have, although I’m not done with it either because I’m always seeking truth and will continually listen to the other side in that search. There is always the chance that any of us, whatever our worldview, are undergoing confirmation bias and simply trying to rationally justify beliefs we truly hold for other reasons. We do the best we can and keep challenging our views.

Thank you for your honesty. Pardon the follow up question(s) and comments, but I guess curiosity kills the cat....

1) Were you a God believer (before or after) you delved into the Kalam argument, the fine-tuning argument, the morality argument, the consciousness argument, etc? If before, then, of course, the said topics are irrelevant to discuss.

2) If all said topics were to be debunked, to your own personal satisfaction, would you still be a Jesus/God believer? Or maybe then just a "generic deist", other?

3) Does the link to my "hypothesis topic" ring any 'truth' to maybe why you believe, or not at all? Just curious...

[POI]

The question is how we define free will. What definition do you want to use?

Sorry to butt in, but I'd like to engage here. Yes, 'free will' has multiple meanings, depending on context. I'll start with one:

After evidence has been presented to you, are you free to either (be convinced or not convinced) of what the evidence demonstrates? I'd say no. But, I do think you are somewhat free to avoid the suggested evidence, which presents as a protection mechanism to preserve a wanted existing belief. Example, a fundamentalist Christian refusing to take courses in evolutionary biology, and currently thinks evolution is only a 'theory'.

[The Tanager]

My definition of free will is a will that is free from determinants and constraints. Do you agree? If not, what is your definition? I think it is pointless to debate free will when it is obvious that I don't have free will.

Let’s work with that definition. If we feel we need to adjust as we go along, we can do that as well. I see 3 logical options:

(1) A will is completely free from any determinant/constraint
(2) A will is determined/constrained in some areas but not others
(3) A will is completely determined/constrained in every area

Do you agree? If not, why not?

We are just talking about logical possibilities right now, like if we talked about cats and the color black.

(1) A cat can be completely black in color
(2) A cat can be a mix of black and another color(s)
(3) A cat can be completely non-black in its color(s)

As to the new critiques you’ve raised (does Jesus answer prayer? and predestination) and other ones already raised, I think they are all great questions and I’d love to talk to you about them, but I think productive discussion must be focused, so I like to take things one at a time. Would you honor me with allowing us to do that? You are free (or are you...) to insist we just tackle everything all at once, of course, and I'll try to honor that, although it will be more time-consuming between posts.