Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[TRANSPONDER]

Thank you. If fact the response looks satisfactory to me. Faith in one case and Faith and works in the other.s

Faith as I say is the ticket to salvation. Works is just to avoid losing Grace by sinning. It does not gain Grace in the first place - that comes through joining the Elect

The way it looks is, if you have the party card, you get saved, so long as you don't disgrace the party more than can be cured by a televised repentance show.

[POI]

Thank you. If fact the response looks satisfactory to me. Faith in one case and Faith and works in the other.s

Faith as I say is the ticket to salvation. Works is just to avoid losing Grace by sinning. It does not gain Grace in the first place - that comes through joining the Elect

The way it looks is, if you have the party card, you get saved, so long as you don't disgrace the party more than can be cured by a televised repentance show.

7 minutes for anyone who cares.... I might have already put this video in this thread somewhere? Who knows at this point

[TRANSPONDER]

A good vid, dealing with the way the original teachings have been adapted, reinterpreted, ignored and replaced by those who apparently think what they do, follow and approve is what's in the Bible, when it isn't. The 'Prosperity gospel' (though I don't know how mainstream that now is) being a particularly staggering example of a Christianity that bins the Bible and everything it teaches in favour of a Ponzi scheme to rip off the dupes.

[1213]

...Because while those passages underline why not doing the Right thing can lose Grace, doing the right thing will not gain it; that comes through Faith in Jesus...

The scriptures underline that according to Jesus, one must be righteous. But, maybe some people will keep you higher than Jesus.

And, if one is faithful to Jesus, and lives by God's rules freely, he can be counted righteous. In that case those actions tells that the person is righteous, has the wisdom of the just.

Also don't forget that Jews are still subject to the OT law and don't get saved unless they keep the Law without sinning...

If they do that, they don't need saving. Only those who have sinned, needs saving. Bible tells the wage off sin is death. So, the saving would then be from the death.

The Gospel message is, You gotta do better, senator' The Christian has to act better than the Pharisees (1) or he could risk losing the Grace they had earned through Faith in Jesus.

By what I see, Bible tells, people must be better, more righteous. It is not exactly the same as do better.

[POI]

The God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion. Why?

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)

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Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

[TRANSPONDER]

...Because while those passages underline why not doing the Right thing can lose Grace, doing the right thing will not gain it; that comes through Faith in Jesus...

The scriptures underline that according to Jesus, one must be righteous. But, maybe some people will keep you higher than Jesus.

And, if one is faithful to Jesus, and lives by God's rules freely, he can be counted righteous. In that case those actions tells that the person is righteous, has the wisdom of the just.

Also don't forget that Jews are still subject to the OT law and don't get saved unless they keep the Law without sinning...

If they do that, they don't need saving. Only those who have sinned, needs saving. Bible tells the wage off sin is death. So, the saving would then be from the death.

The Gospel message is, You gotta do better, senator' The Christian has to act better than the Pharisees (1) or he could risk losing the Grace they had earned through Faith in Jesus.

By what I see, Bible tells, people must be better, more righteous. It is not exactly the same as do better.

Of course it does - unless you mean be more believing. We have done this before. Good works do not save, because if they did, Faith in Jesusgod would not be needed, only a sound moral code, and one better than any of the old ones. The Biblical moral code is simply not good enough - nor are the morals in the NT good enough to make a person Righteous. One could own slaves and still be 'Righteous' according to the Bible and Christianity, until the reform (not by the church, though the reformers played the religion - card, though actually using evolutionary arguments - we are all the same species) eventually forced the churches to get on board with abolition and emancipation. Rather belatedly. Gender equality even later. It wasn't that long ago women preachers weren't allowed; it was a secular push.

No, the Churches, Christian religion and the Bible, may claim the credit for the Good, but they just jump on the band wagon when it looks like they might be left behind. Point is, You cannot judge justly by following the Bible. Rather you need to cherry pick using human morals.

But suppose you say stoning people and beating slaves is ok? So long as you do what Jesus says (and doesn't forbid) you are being Righteous, yes? Cue excuses 'Jesus and God are Good, therefore one should do Good and pretend Jesus told you to do so'. I can hear it now.

Faith in God is what matters. If it was not so then Moses could have said 'Ok, worship what you like, just follow these commandments after the first four'. And Jesus would have said, 'Do what I tell you, believething in me won't get you eternal life.. Actions will'. Keeping the commandments may bring a Rich young Ruler near to the salvation, but one thing was lacking, give all your cash to the church (who will give it to the Poor for you ) and 'follow Jesus'. Not, not live a life following his words, but following Him.

And didn't you argue that he is dead so how can one 'follow' him? In Faith in him and his representative - the Church; if you can find one you like. Or if you can't, start your religion of One and follow yourself and the Jesus in one's own head.

[1213]

But suppose you say stoning people and beating slaves is ok? So long as you do what Jesus says (and doesn't forbid) you are being Righteous, yes?

Person is righteous, if he has the right understanding. And if person has the right understanding, he wants to do God's will.

Jesus said:
Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.
Matt. 7:1-2

That is why I think it is not ok, if disciples of Jesus ( Christians) stone people.

And, because it is said, love people as yourself, I think one avoid beating anyone.

...And Jesus would have said, 'Do what I tell you, believething in me won't get you eternal life.....

Jesus said one must be righteous. Why is that not good enough for you?

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

And didn't you argue that he is dead so how can one 'follow' him?

I said Jesus is not on earth like he was back then, therefore no one can go to him and follow him.

[1213]

...Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven?... ...I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. ...

I think Bible is clear and good message. It is weird how you can have so much trouble with it.

[POI]

...Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven?... ...I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. ...

I think Bible is clear and good message. It is weird how you can have so much trouble with it.

Again, post 534.

[TRANSPONDER]

But suppose you say stoning people and beating slaves is ok? So long as you do what Jesus says (and doesn't forbid) you are being Righteous, yes?

Person is righteous, if he has the right understanding. And if person has the right understanding, he wants to do God's will.

Jesus said:
Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.
Matt. 7:1-2

That is why I think it is not ok, if disciples of Jesus ( Christians) stone people.

And, because it is said, love people as yourself, I think one avoid beating anyone.

...And Jesus would have said, 'Do what I tell you, believething in me won't get you eternal life.....

Jesus said one must be righteous. Why is that not good enough for you?

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

And didn't you argue that he is dead so how can one 'follow' him?

I said Jesus is not on earth like he was back then, therefore no one can go to him and follow him.

No.A Righteous person contests God's will. This is why Bible apologists try ti excuse God's evildoings (and slavery) in the Bible. If human morals were not used rather than Biblical (God's will) they would not need to 'apologise' or explain away these evils. Righteousness is not doing good or judging justly, but trusting (first) "In" God/Jesus which leads to doing what is ordered. Which either leads to evildoing or using human morals but still claiming it as gGod's will.

The point is, Just Judging or Righteous, is not from God, the Bible or Christianity and never was.

Again a fail of stoning and loving people as yourself. Same fail as turning the other cheek or giving someone who pinches your wallet, you underpants, car keys and wife, too. Nobody in their right mind or indeed out of it does what the Bible says. It is justice and protecting others from those who would bilk and explouit them, not loving unconditionally. This (not stoning as a punishment) is the point. We do not 'love unconditionally' we judge Justly (or try to) and the Bibleas God's word or Jesus'tyeachings are just not good enough.

Aside from whether it is Faith or works that saves, doing God's (supposed) orders is Righteous because it is following God's order good or bad, which is why the bad gets denied and the good is credited to God/Christianity which does not deserve the credit.

I recall I mentioned the permit of women preachers and even Bishops (despite a LOT of protests from Good Christians) but the Church could see the secularist moral writing on the wall - 'Get on board or get left behind'.

Which is why 'Jesus said 'be Righteous fails. Being righteous these days is not done by following God's orders, but by cherry picking them to fit in with human morals and pretending they are God's. The Matthew passage about eternal punishment stinks badly enough. Eternal punishment? Really? That's justice?

Finally of course one cannot physically follow Jesus but following him is still doable by following his church. I recall I said 'giving all away and following him' is still doable and that Jesus is long dead is not an excuse from it being Jesus' instructions.