Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

...No.A Righteous person contests God's will.

Sorry, I don't think that is true.

apologists try ti excuse God's evildoings (and slavery) in the Bible.

I don't think God has done anything evil. And, if one goes by every rule in the Bible, I don't think slavery would be a problem. Also, I think it is hypocrite to say it is wrong, if you still support mandatory taxation, which is worse thane the ancient slavery.

...Righteousness is not doing good or judging justly, but trusting (first) "In" God/Jesus which leads to doing what is ordered...

By what the Bible tells, it is wisdom of the just, right understanding that leads to good actions. If you have that right understanding, you want freely to do what is right, because you understand it is good, not because of some belief. And that is the great difference between righteousness of pharisees and those who truly are righteous.

I recall I mentioned the permit of women preachers and even Bishops (despite a LOT of protests from Good Christians) but the Church could see the secularist moral writing on the wall - 'Get on board or get left behind'.

I the whole idea of priests, men or woman is against what Jesus said:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt. 23:4-12

By what I see, those who want to get high position, are not disciples of Jesus (=Christians).

Eternal punishment? Really? That's justice?

The punishment is the fire lake that is called also second death. It is eternal fire. But, person who is thrown there is utterly destroyed (dead).

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [also translated hell].
Matt. 10:28


I don't see any good reason why should God allow evil people to live forever. Do you know any good reason why evil should continue eternally?

[TRANSPONDER]

...No.A Righteous person contests God's will.

Sorry, I don't think that is true.

apologists try ti excuse God's evildoings (and slavery) in the Bible.

I don't think God has done anything evil. And, if one goes by every rule in the Bible, I don't think slavery would be a problem. Also, I think it is hypocrite to say it is wrong, if you still support mandatory taxation, which is worse thane the ancient slavery.

...Righteousness is not doing good or judging justly, but trusting (first) "In" God/Jesus which leads to doing what is ordered...

By what the Bible tells, it is wisdom of the just, right understanding that leads to good actions. If you have that right understanding, you want freely to do what is right, because you understand it is good, not because of some belief. And that is the great difference between righteousness of pharisees and those who truly are righteous.

I recall I mentioned the permit of women preachers and even Bishops (despite a LOT of protests from Good Christians) but the Church could see the secularist moral writing on the wall - 'Get on board or get left behind'.

I the whole idea of priests, men or woman is against what Jesus said:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt. 23:4-12

By what I see, those who want to get high position, are not disciples of Jesus (=Christians).

Eternal punishment? Really? That's justice?

The punishment is the fire lake that is called also second death. It is eternal fire. But, person who is thrown there is utterly destroyed (dead).

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [also translated hell].
Matt. 10:28


I don't see any good reason why should God allow evil people to live forever. Do you know any good reason why evil should continue eternally?

I don't care what you think, I only care about the case you can make. I don't think God does anything evil, it happens without intent as there is no God - so I think. That said, God did evil, does evil and intends to do more evil - according to the Bible.

I have said before Righteous judging or the like is human morals, which are used to identify evils done by God, which then have to be excused. It's what apologetics is all about. And the point has been made, atheists do the right because it matters; The religious do it because of hope of a reward.

I don't think Jesus is teaching against priests, teachers and Rabbis, as such, but those who bring the position into disrepute. In fact I think this is Christian propagandist accusations against Jewish law and tradition, but that's just my take.

If those who are disciples of Jesus do not want high position, why do the sons of Zebedee ask for a seat beside Jesus? And why does Jesus promise the 12 (including Judas?) that they will be seated on thrones, judging?

You may be right about the after -death burning not being eternal. The Phariseeic (echoed by Paul) view seems to be a burning out of evil and if enough is left, an earthly eternal life is given; the others are gone. Christianity teaches eternal life in heaven or in hell. They really have to fiddle the Bible to get that doctrine, but it is mainstream doctrine. It means that you have a Christianity of your own.

[POI]

The God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion. Why?

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)

*********************

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

[Mae von H]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

Trying to avoid hell or just punishment for wrongs done is the wrong pursuit from the beginning. It is like the thief asking how they can avoid jail time. It is not asking how to live right by others, how to restore the wrongs others suffered from the their choices, or how to find forgiveness. It is just asking how to save the self and preferably with little to no effort or unpleasantness. The selfish question will only secure the path to selfish answers.

It also reminds me of the married man asking how he can avoid the financial loss of divorce. No interest in loving his wife or children.No interest in being a good father and husband. No interest in making the world around him a better place. He is just interested in avoiding the financial penalty divorce brings.

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

Trying to avoid hell or just punishment for wrongs done is the wrong pursuit from the beginning. It is like the thief asking how they can avoid jail time. It is not asking how to live right by others, how to restore the wrongs others suffered from the their choices, or how to find forgiveness. It is just asking how to save the self and preferably with little to no effort or unpleasantness. The selfish question will only secure the path to selfish answers.

It also reminds me of the married man asking how he can avoid the financial loss of divorce. No interest in loving his wife or children.No interest in being a good father and husband. No interest in making the world around him a better place. He is just interested in avoiding the financial penalty divorce brings.

Do you know the answer or not? I'm not asking because I want to avoid "Hell". I'm no longer a believer. I'm asking Christians if they know the answer to this straightforward question. And yet, the answers vary, (from believer to believer), to this simple question. Again, how does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other?

[1213]

...Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

I think God's plan is the best. The message is clear in the Bible for anyone who remains in truth. People have enough understanding to get it and if someone thinks he doesn't have, he can always ask wisdom from God to understand it correctly. If someone has a problem, I think it is by his own choice. And I like that God gave people freedom to reject truth and reason.

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

And those who perhaps would like to understand, I think these following scriptures are a good in helping to understand that it is essentially about what kind of person one is.

But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said to them, "Allow the little children to come to me! Don't forbid them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Most assuredly I tell you, whoever will not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child, he will in no way enter into it."
Mark 10:14-15
and said, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless you turn, and be-come as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 18:3
Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, [The word translated "anew" here and in John 3:7 (anothen) also means "again" and "from above".] he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7
But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be-come God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is a mistake to think heaven is a reward for doing something, when it is a gift for certain types of people.

[TRANSPONDER]

Our dear pla, isn't that what I was saying all along and you denied, as I recall? Heaven is what you get for being a member of the Jesus-club. It is NOT awarded for good deeds and never could be. (though I recall you tried to argue that Being a Christian makes a person moral). The type of person who gets to heaven (so the mainsteam belief is) is the one with the party card.

I also recall that you denied that was the case and the Bible didn't say that. It was a matter of being 'Righteous'' And, skipping our debate about that, and whether a good person in another religion could get to heaven, you invented your own Christianity; and the only Christianity an atheist cares about (with a sect membership on more than one) is the one that goes with what the Bible appears to say - Belief in Jesus (and Paul makes it clear that this is belief in the resurrection that proved Jesus was Christ) is the ticket to the Upper Circle, and Good Works is only necessary to stop that ticket being invalidated beyond what a show of repentance and a dollar in the tin can put right.

[POI]

I think God's plan is the best.

Being unclear is the best plan? As I stated, to the message you responded to above, believers agree God dislikes murder, theft, trespassing, etc. But when it comes to the topic of salvation, believers disagree. Hence, the Bible's message is not clear to believers about the topic of salvation.

The message is clear in the Bible for anyone who remains in truth.

Then what you are suggesting is that anyone who does not agree with you, about how to achieve salvation, does not remain in truth. Unless you think there is a chance you could be wrong. Which then suggests the message is not as clear as you state.

People have enough understanding to get it and if someone thinks he doesn't have, he can always ask wisdom from God to understand it correctly. If someone has a problem, I think it is by his own choice. And I like that God gave people freedom to reject truth and reason.

If the message was clear, you would not need to ask God for wisdom.

I've also spoken to many believers who claim to receive wisdom from God. And yet, all these folks give conflicting answers to me about this topic. I guess this means that either?:

A) Jesus/God is not actually providing wisdom to said believers
B) Jesus/God is giving conflicting answers

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

What is most likely here, and why?

A) Jesus/God gives conflicting answers to differing believers.
B) You were given the correct answer while other believers, who do not agree with you, are not actual truth seekers (or) are lying.
C) The Bible's message about salvation is unclear, unlike the Bible's message about (murder, theft, trespassing, etc). Further, Jesus/God is not really talking to any of you about anything.

It is a mistake to think heaven is a reward for doing something, when it is a gift for certain types of people.

As I just told Mae von H, in post 555, I'm asking believers "what is the answer"? I'm not sure if this person will answer the question though. Why? If this person provides an answer, this person will then know it does not agree with some other believers here who have also answered the simple question.

The question is as simple as asking whether or not God likes murder, theft, and trespassing. And you gave your simple answer, which is F). However, no other believers answered F).

[Mae von H]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

Trying to avoid hell or just punishment for wrongs done is the wrong pursuit from the beginning. It is like the thief asking how they can avoid jail time. It is not asking how to live right by others, how to restore the wrongs others suffered from the their choices, or how to find forgiveness. It is just asking how to save the self and preferably with little to no effort or unpleasantness. The selfish question will only secure the path to selfish answers.

It also reminds me of the married man asking how he can avoid the financial loss of divorce. No interest in loving his wife or children.No interest in being a good father and husband. No interest in making the world around him a better place. He is just interested in avoiding the financial penalty divorce brings.

Do you know the answer or not? I'm not asking because I want to avoid "Hell". I'm no longer a believer. I'm asking Christians if they know the answer to this straightforward question. And yet, the answers vary, (from believer to believer), to this simple question. Again, how does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other?

You want to avoid hell? Repent of your wrong doings to others. Do restitution as needed. Ask God and man (as necessary) for forgiveness and SURRENDER your life to Him. Give up being the Lord of your life.

[POI]

You want to avoid hell? Repent of your wrong doings to others. Do restitution as needed. Ask God and man (as necessary) for forgiveness and SURRENDER your life to Him. Give up being the Lord of your life.

Below is the answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

****************************

Please bear in mind I have provided over-arching large categories. For example, 'works' could be any physical act which pleases God.

Is your answer D)?