Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[Mae von H]

You want to avoid hell? Repent of your wrong doings to others. Do restitution as needed. Ask God and man (as necessary) for forgiveness and SURRENDER your life to Him. Give up being the Lord of your life.

Below is the answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

****************************

Please bear in mind I have provided over-arching large categories. For example, 'works' could be any physical act which pleases God.

Is your answer D)?

No, it is not a book answer. Jesus gave totally different answers to different people. Why? Because they were at different places in their heart and thinking, What was asked of the rich, young ruler? What did he say to Peter? What about Zacchaeus? Or the woman caught in adultery? What about those to whom Jesus says he'll say, "go away?" Do these all fit into ONE of those possibilities above?

[POI]

No, it is not a book answer.

I disagree. I'll explain below, by responding to what you stated.

Jesus gave totally different answers to different people. Why? Because they were at different places in their heart and thinking, What was asked of the rich, young ruler? What did he say to Peter? What about Zacchaeus? Or the woman caught in adultery? What about those to whom Jesus says he'll say, "go away?" Do these all fit into ONE of those possibilities above?

Your response is "oranges" to my question of "apples". I did not ask you what some need to correct to then align with God's criteria for salvation. Maybe God requires that no one owns/possesses more than what is absolutely necessary for base human survival, to avoid idolizing material items over God. Which for some, would require to give away much more, verses a transient who owns virtually no possessions to begin with....

I instead asked you what IS God's criteria for salvation. So, what IS God's criteria for salvation? If you instead want me to question your prior response, in post 559, I can do so. But you will quickly see how your answer instead becomes a non-answer.

[Mae von H]

No, it is not a book answer.

I disagree. I'll explain below, by responding to what you stated.

Well, I am not the one concerned about my eternal destiny. That's because I really do understand the matter and there is no text book easy cheap method that will compel the Judge of all the Earth to acquit you of all guilt. No magic words. No embrace this doctrine. It's called relationship not having good doctrine.

Jesus gave totally different answers to different people. Why? Because they were at different places in their heart and thinking, What was asked of the rich, young ruler? What did he say to Peter? What about Zacchaeus? Or the woman caught in adultery? What about those to whom Jesus says he'll say, "go away?" Do these all fit into ONE of those possibilities above?

Your response is "oranges" to my question of "apples". I did not ask you what some need to correct to then align with God's criteria for salvation. Maybe God requires that no one owns/possesses more than what is absolutely necessary for base human survival, to avoid idolizing material items over God. Which for some, would require to give away much more, verses a transient who owns virtually no possessions to begin with....

I instead asked you what IS God's criteria for salvation. So, what IS God's criteria for salvation? If you instead want me to question your prior response, in post 559, I can do so. But you will quickly see how your answer instead becomes a non-answer.

You want God's criteria? Do what He tells you to do. Some of these are works but not all and the more difficult ones are nothing even close a "work" at all. Some require his help but you should know that grace is not "unmerited favor" granted the lucky ones. Neither is it earned or merited. We must fulfill conditions to obtain His grace and those conditions might include an action although unless commanded by Him, it's fruitless. I do have scriptures for this if you're interested.

I'll say it point blank, no man who obeys God, the real living God, will fail to be saved. However, whether one has obeyed God or oneself is not ours to judge but His. IOW, obeying God requires relationship with Him. (How else can you hear instructions?) Relationship with Him requires certain responses on our part and a host of responses on His part, most of which He's already accomplished. (Colloquially called "getting saved" or "accepting Jesus.")

The truth is not a multiple choice answer that fits into the box you've designed. The rich young ruler thought he'd design the answers Jesus could choose from when asking the same question you ask. Jesus gave him essentially "none of the above" which was the truth. That guy didn't like the truth either.

[POI]

(YOU) 1) Well, I am not the one concerned about my eternal destiny. 2) That's because I really do understand the matter 3) and there is no text book easy cheap method that will compel the Judge of all the Earth to acquit you of all guilt. No magic words. No embrace this doctrine. It's called relationship not having good doctrine.

(POI)
1) I am not concerned with "salvation" myself. The intent of this topic is to demonstrate that true believers cannot even agree on the topic of salvation. You are directly part of this demonstration.
2) Well, of course you do
3) As stated prior, we really only have four very broad categories, if you ARE to assume God saves some. I'm merely asking you to choose one:

a) universal salvation (likely not)
b) faith/belief (check)
c) works (?)
d) both b and c (?)

Again, the broad topic of 'faith' would include belief/worship/repent/prayer. The broad topic of "works" would include any physical external action, to yourself and others, in which pleases God.

(YOU) 1) You want God's criteria? Do what He tells you to do. Some of these are works but not all and the more difficult ones are nothing even close a "work" at all. Some require his help but you should know that grace is not "unmerited favor" granted the lucky ones. 2) Neither is it earned or merited. 3) We must fulfill conditions to obtain His grace and those conditions might include an action although unless commanded by Him, it's fruitless. I do have scriptures for this if you're interested.

4) I'll say it point blank, no man who obeys God, the real living God, will fail to be saved. However, whether one has obeyed God or oneself is not ours to judge but His. IOW, obeying God requires relationship with Him. (How else can you hear instructions?) Relationship with Him requires certain responses on our part and a host of responses on His part, most of which He's already accomplished. (Colloquially called "getting saved" or "accepting Jesus.")

5) The truth is not a multiple choice answer that fits into the box you've designed. 6) The rich young ruler thought he'd design the answers Jesus could choose from when asking the same question you ask. 7) Jesus gave him essentially "none of the above" which was the truth. That guy didn't like the truth either.

(POI)
1) Always, sometimes, or less?
2) Then doing them cannot earn your salvation in any capacity.
3) But you just stated that works are not merited or earned. If they are not merited or earned, you cannot earn his conditional grace regardless.
4) No one obeys God at all times. We are all apparently sinners. Does this mean no one goes to Heaven?
5) Yes, it is a multiple-choice question, as explained above. But it does not mean you have to like it.
6) Again with "the rich". I've already explained here. Yes, each and every person have to give up differing amounts. But God's criteria is the same for all. Meaning, according to scripture, if you give up all your worldly possessions, you have no worldly possession to worship, which instead brings your focus to God. So again, the transient has to give up much less than say... Donald Trump.
7) For the reason(s) aforementioned, Jesus is wrong here.

Does this mean your answer is B), as no amount of works can earn a place?

[1213]

Being unclear is the best plan? As I stated, to the message you responded to above, believers agree God dislikes murder, theft, trespassing, etc. But when it comes to the topic of salvation, believers disagree. Hence, the Bible's message is not clear to believers about the topic of salvation.

[/quote]

If believers disagree, it can be for some other reason than Bible.

I don't think Bible is unclear in this. It seems to me that you have made contradictory interpretations and claim that Bible is unclear because of that. So, why make interpretations that makes things difficult for you? Bible doesn't say that you should interpret it irrationally.

[TRANSPONDER]

Being unclear is the best plan? As I stated, to the message you responded to above, believers agree God dislikes murder, theft, trespassing, etc. But when it comes to the topic of salvation, believers disagree. Hence, the Bible's message is not clear to believers about the topic of salvation.

If believers disagree, it can be for some other reason than Bible.

I don't think Bible is unclear in this. It seems to me that you have made contradictory interpretations and claim that Bible is unclear because of that. So, why make interpretations that makes things difficult for you? Bible doesn't say that you should interpret it irrationally.
[/quote]

This is just apologetics excuses. I know you argued that the misleaders try to pervert the word of God - but ALL of them? I already pointed out that your views were not mainstream. So you are accusing all the churches but your Denomination of One are all deliberate (or Satan -inspired) misleaders and you are the only one with the truth?

No, the better explanation that fits the fact is that faithful Christians interpret the Bible in different ways and doctrines and that is because the Bible isn't clear, is contradictory and often, not correct. I think it's back to the drawing -board on that particular apologetics excuse. In fact I think you need a new drawing-board.

[POI]

If believers disagree, it can be for some other reason than Bible.

I don't think Bible is unclear in this. It seems to me that you have made contradictory interpretations and claim that Bible is unclear because of that. So, why make interpretations that makes things difficult for you? Bible doesn't say that you should interpret it irrationally.

You are mistaken. God claims he can make his message crystal clear. Please remember it is too the Bible which states that someday "every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess." That's pretty clear. But not even going THAT far, God's message is not debated about on his dislikes for murder, theft, and trespassing. And yet, none of you fine Christian folks agree about God's path to salvation? You demonstrate the exact same things other Christians do. You emphasize certain verses, while not dong so for other verses which also suggest a differing path. Why not just instead ask yourself... "Which path is it"?

[1213]

You are mistaken. God claims he can make his message crystal clear. ... ...And yet, none of you fine Christian folks agree about God's path to salvation? You demonstrate the exact same things other Christians do. You emphasize certain verses, while not dong so for other verses which also suggest a differing path. Why not just instead ask yourself... "Which path is it"?

Sorry, I don't think you can demonstrate Bible, the God's message, to be unclear. The words are as they are, nothing unclear in them. The problems are in the doctrines people make, not in the message in the Bible.

[1213]

This is just apologetics excuses. I know you argued that the misleaders try to pervert the word of God - but ALL of them? I already pointed out that your views were not mainstream. So you are accusing all the churches but your Denomination of One are all deliberate (or Satan -inspired) misleaders and you are the only one with the truth?

Bible is the true Christian doctrine. And unfortunately many "Christian" people go against it.

No, the better explanation that fits the fact is that faithful Christians interpret the Bible in different ways and doctrines and that is because the Bible isn't clear, is contradictory and often, not correct. I think it's back to the drawing -board on that particular apologetics excuse. In fact I think you need a new drawing-board.

It is interesting that after all this time, no atheist has managed to show a real contradiction in the Bible. I don't know any intelligent reason to say Bible is not clear. But, I know that people have developed many interpretations that can be contradictory. I think people should not try to explain (interpret) Bible to mean something else than what it actually says.

[TRANSPONDER]

You are mistaken. God claims he can make his message crystal clear. ... ...And yet, none of you fine Christian folks agree about God's path to salvation? You demonstrate the exact same things other Christians do. You emphasize certain verses, while not dong so for other verses which also suggest a differing path. Why not just instead ask yourself... "Which path is it"?

Sorry, I don't think you can demonstrate Bible, the God's message, to be unclear. The words are as they are, nothing unclear in them. The problems are in the doctrines people make, not in the message in the Bible.

Indeed. Odd then that we get told so often that what the Bible says is not what it means. The sun made after day and night really isn't that, Jesus telling people to give all they have to the poor and follow him doesn't literally mean that, the guarantee that whatever you ask in faith (even as small as a mustard seed) and it will be granted - even uprooting a tree into the drink, doesn't really mean that, and Jesus saying he'd come back (and on the clouds with the Janacek fanfare to wake everyone up in the lifetime of the ones listening to hi of course doesn't mean that. Clear as mud.