Genesis (Literal or Not)?

[POI]

Taken from post 359 of here (http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 2#p1139292)

Apparently, 'scholarly' debate still exists as to whether or not Genesis, (especially chapters 1-11), are meant to be a literal account of events or not?

For debate:

1) Is Genesis meant to be a literal account of events, as written, or not? The reason I do not specify is because I have even debated theists who claim the resurrection was not a literal event. Hence, we will first need to see where each theist thinks the Genesis account is literal, versus not? Please also provide scholarly evidence to support your answer where applicable.
2) Should God be pleased with his lack in clear communication here? Many have fallen away from the Bible, because such claims do not comport with their reality. If God's intent for Genesis was not to be literal, why do so many Bible scholars think God's message was literal? Further, if God's intent is to bring people to him, why give an unclear message which instead causes many to fall away, due to not aligning with their reality?

[TRANSPONDER]

Yeah..it reminds me of Tanager's point about the historical approach to the Bible, which i saw as pointless as if Genesis is in conflict with science then (unless one denies science) genesis is gone and never mind correct historical method.

William'spoint about the intentions of the author - what he intended us to take from it - is irrelevant is science says it isn't correct so we should take nothing from it other than as literature, myth or moral philosophy.

I should pick upon the point about Genesis fitting into evolutionary theory as the bible implies that there were other humans - going to the land of Hod to to find a wife for a son. Well, that's a bit like making a global flood to make Genesis fit with science that says the Flood didn't happen and the Ark -scenario wouldn't work. Even if one argued (some have) that there was a fellow who built a raft with a few critters on and that gave rise to the Noah story - well that is the old story of making the Bible right at the expense of making the point of the Bible wrong. It is not a history book but a book that tell us about God's doings and going with geology, palaeontology, evolution and ancient history makes Genesis wrong.

[historia]

Before the scientific revolution, how many more do you think took Genesis literally?

Before you go further down this path, I'd recommend you stop and read Lee Clarke's article, "The Great Myths 11: Biblical Literalism," over at Tim O'Neill's blog, History for Atheists.

O'Neill, himself an atheist, introduces the article this way:

It is assumed in much anti-theistic polemic that the Bible has traditionally always been interpreted literally. A lot of criticism of believers is based on how irrational, impossible and anti-scientific such a reading of the Bible has to be and how the current literalism of many fundamentalist Christians simply reflects how the Bible has always been read, with non-literal interpretations simply a modern rear-guard attempt to reconcile the Bible with current understandings of the world. But this is not true. In fact, fundamentalist Biblical literalism is a very recent, mostly Protestant and largely American affair. Historically, things were much more complex.

It seem to me you are approaching the Bible with many of the same assumptions that a modern Fundamentalist Protestant would, and end-up with a lot of false dilemmas because of it. This is simply not how Jews and Christians have historically approached Genesis for most of history.

[TRANSPONDER]

Before the scientific revolution, how many more do you think took Genesis literally?

Before you go further down this path, I'd recommend you stop and read Lee Clarke's article, "The Great Myths 11: Biblical Literalism," over at Tim O'Neill's blog, History for Atheists. O'Neill introduces the article this way:

It is assumed in much anti-theistic polemic that the Bible has traditionally always been interpreted literally. A lot of criticism of believers is based on how irrational, impossible and anti-scientific such a reading of the Bible has to be and how the current literalism of many fundamentalist Christians simply reflects how the Bible has always been read, with non-literal interpretations simply a modern rear-guard attempt to reconcile the Bible with current understandings of the world. But this is not true. In fact, fundamentalist Biblical literalism is a very recent, mostly Protestant and largely American affair. Historically, things were much more complex.

It seem to me you are approaching the Bible with many of the same assumptions that a modern Fundamentalist Protestant would, and end-up with a lot of false dilemmas because of it. This is simply not how Jews and Christians have historically approached Genesis for most of history.

I don't think we care how Jews and Christians approached the Bible, but about how a rational person who does not deny science approaches it. It matters to do that because many people - not just Christians, but Jews and Muslims, who are fighting about who got it right (as that is the only thing that makes them different, and also because a lot of science denial was going on from the 80's and now has a serious and dangerous political element to religious fundamentalism.

It is more necessary than ever now that the Bible, Christianity and the Churches have power and influence over us, that the basis for this - especially as the validation for reactionary social politics - be the recipient of some pushback.

[POI]

[Replying to historia in post #22]

You make a fair point, but have skipped mine. You are arguing "oranges", where-as I'm arguing "apples". Please see my response to Difflugia:

If God's intent is to provide a book to draw one closer, why aid in a book which does the opposite for many? God is not responsible for such thought? Even the dumb knows some of God's desires and wishes. Seems odd he chooses to remain vague about a topic which drives many away. Further, God can make his message clear, above all humans.

********************

Please remember this topic derives directly from the other topic --- (Does science debunk the Bible?) You mention the fundamentalist, for which there are many on both sides (believers and unbelievers). The believers deny science, maybe even illogically, to favor the Biblical claims. And the unbelievers, are unbelievers, sometimes maybe because science does not comport with these perceived literal claims.

So I ask, is Genesis literal, as written, or not? If the question is too vague, as Diffligia pointed out, we can pick specific stories for which you believe are literal, in which science may question.

[POI]

Rescuing your original thread would probably be better served by attempting to redefine or narrow your original question.

I edited question one, to clarify as to why the question is not more precise. I hope this suffices?

[The Tanager]

[Replying to POI in post #20]

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[historia]

You make a fair point, but have skipped mine.

Right, my comment above was not directed at your general questions. Rather, it was focused on a specific question you had asked: whether more Christians prior to the scientific revolution interpreted Genesis literally. The answer is likely 'no' -- at least not in the way that modern fundamentalist Protestants do.

If God's intent is to provide a book to draw one closer, why aid in a book which does the opposite for many?

Why do you think the purpose of the Bible is to "draw one closer"?

So I ask, is Genesis literal, as written, or not?

Genesis is a book that includes stories from many sources. The early stories are Hebrew mythology. The latter stories are legends, some of which may be based on actual people and events.

None of Genesis appears to be a simple, straight-forward scientific or historical account. Nor have Jews and Christians historically seen it as such. So, it would seem the answer to your question is broadly 'no'.

[POI]

Why do you think the purpose of the Bible is to "draw one closer"?

Because the Bible is where the claim for truth is located. Also, because:

James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Psalm 145:18
The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.

Psalm 73:28
But for me it is good to be near God; I have made the Lord God my refuge, that I may tell of all your works.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Psalm 34:18
The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.

Psalm 91:4
He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:16-21
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. ...

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Isaiah 40:11
He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.

Matthew 6:10-11
Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread,

1 Corinthians 13:3
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Joshua 1:5-6
No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you or forsake you. Be strong and courageous, for you shall cause this people to inherit the land that I swore to their fathers to give them.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Matthew 15:1-39
Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” ...

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

John 5:7 ESV
The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.”

Malachi 3:7 ESV
From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts. But you say, ‘How shall we return?’

Hebrews 10:19-22
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Zechariah 1:3 ESV
Therefore say to them, Thus declares the Lord of hosts: Return to me, says the Lord of hosts, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

Zephaniah 3:2
She listens to no voice; she accepts no correction. She does not trust in the Lord; she does not draw near to her God.

Psalm 23:1-6
A Psalm of David. The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. ...

Hebrews 7:19
(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Psalm 65:4 ESV
Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!

Zephaniah 3:17
The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

Song of Solomon 1:4
Draw me after you; let us run. The king has brought me into his chambers. We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine; rightly do they love you.

Numbers 16:5
And he said to Korah and all his company, “In the morning the Lord will show who is his, and who is holy, and will bring him near to him. The one whom he chooses he will bring near to him.

James 4:1-17
What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? ...

James 1:8 ESV
He is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Amos 1:1-15
The words of Amos, who was among the shepherds of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel, two years before the earthquake. And he said: “The Lord roars from Zion and utters his voice from Jerusalem; the pastures of the shepherds mourn, and the top of Carmel withers.” Thus says the Lord: “For three transgressions of Damascus, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they have threshed Gilead with threshing sledges of iron. So I will send a fire upon the house of Hazael, and it shall devour the strongholds of Ben-hadad. I will break the gate-bar of Damascus, and cut off the inhabitants from the Valley of Aven, and him who holds the scepter from Beth-eden; and the people of Syria shall go into exile to Kir,” says the Lord. ...

Jeremiah 4:14 ESV
O Jerusalem, wash your heart from evil, that you may be saved. How long shall your wicked thoughts lodge within you?

Proverbs 31:1-31
The words of King Lemuel. An oracle that his mother taught him: What are you doing, my son? What are you doing, son of my womb? What are you doing, son of my vows? Do not give your strength to women, your ways to those who destroy kings. It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted. ...

Psalm 119:113
I hate the double-minded, but I love your law.

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Revelation 1:1-20
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood ...

Acts 17:10-11
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Isaiah 1:16
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil,

Psalm 24:4
He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false and does not swear deceitfully.

Genesis is a book that includes stories from many sources. The early stories are Hebrew mythology. The latter stories are legends, some of which may be based on actual people and events.

None of Genesis appears to be a simple, straight-forward scientific or historical account. Nor have Jews and Christians historically seen it as such. So, it would seem the answer to your question is broadly 'no'.

Okay, that is your claim. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

And to again ask question two, re-worded: If God sees that so many turn away from God, due to science not comporting with their reality, why did God not do a BETTER job in telling folks what you believe above, about Genesis and beyond?

[William]

[Replying to historia in post #27]

If God's intent is to provide a book to draw one closer, why aid in a book which does the opposite for many?

Why do you think the purpose of the Bible is to "draw one closer"?

Specifically (while not specifically mentioned in either the question or the answer) the object one is meant to be drawing closer to (as opposed to moving further from) is (in overall Biblical terms- of which there are many) -specifically - is for one to ~Draw Closer to The Father~.

To some ~It May Seem Insignificant~ to do so but - that aside - the question being asked is clearly based upon the belief that the Bible was intended to be The Father's way given through which to do so - to draw close enough to activate a relationship.

The relationship is not within or coming from the Bible (a book) and the Bible never claims to be that device, but rather points to The Son as the actual means through which the drawing closer process can be initiated for that to happen.

That is the short version which clearly shows that the whole path the thread topic is on and
- where it is drawing folk - is based on misinformation (non-truth) and is a strawman for that.

In order to ask the right questions for the right answers one ought not wander, wonder or even worry about that path of deception (smoke and mirrors with the straw.)

Subvocalization is an aspect of that drawing closer and influences Individual Actions allowing these to Draw Closer to The Father
Extrinsicism as the opposite, is there For A Particular Reason as these enable seekers of relationship with The Father, a place to bounce off of and away from as a form of getting ones bearings. Important in the overall process but not to be confused with being the overall process.

The Father: Limpid
“If what you call your "self" interferes with who you are, then that is not the "Self" you need to be”.
(An expression of personal incredulity)

The Son: Interesting. I would argue (re the subject matter) that one is not supposed to be drawing further from The Father…as the same as that which “interferes with who you are” and sometimes the interference also – even often -comes from external voices where others are attempting to tell me “who” I am and to begin with (naturally enough) I believed those voices and follow them where they took me.

The Father: Exactly
viewtopic.php?p=1087668#p108766
(Event String Unfolding)
The Son: The thread you linked is called “Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?” and I have contributed to that thread-page a number of ideas – one such mostly to do with our current part of our overall conversation…written Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:43am the words “You create whatever experience you will have in the next phase based upon the type of personality you shaped your self into during this one.”

The Father: Counterfactual
The Son: Perhaps it is Counterfactual in that the concept is expressing what has not happened but could, would, or might under differing conditions.
Or perhaps you are referring to the topic at hand in that the pathway which draws folk further from The Father is counterfactual…
The Father: You may be Psychic, not mentally ill.
The Son: And you obviously are a comedian.
The Father: Draw Closer to The Father… Why do we experience;
déjà vu?
Fifth Force
Artificial Intelligence
Boundaries
Tracks In The Snow
Dualic Energies
The Son: Those are some big questions.
The Father: Extra evidence is provided.
The Son: Through the relationship between The Father and The Son
The Father: Did Adam make the right choice re Eve?
The Son: Circling back to the question of whether Genesis stories should be taken literally, or not.
The questioned framed as it is, does not provide for any alternative to “yes” or “no”.
The Father: What has been established beyond reasonable doubt, is that it is illogical that something that is derived from something that isn't, which firmly places the idea of a Creator/Creation at the center of reasonable discussion.
The Son: That is the point of drawing closer, so that correct information can be obtained in this manner by the The Son.

[1213]

1) Is Genesis meant to be a literal account of events, as written, or not?

There is no Biblical reason to think is something else than literal, that is why I think it was meant to be taken literally.

2) Should God be pleased with his lack in clear communication here?

I think there is nothing unclear in the Bible about this. Bible doesn't say it was a metaphor, or something that is not literally true.