NT vs. Koran vs. Book of Mormon

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Tim the Skeptic
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NT vs. Koran vs. Book of Mormon

Post #1

Post by Tim the Skeptic »

In micatala's thread on Socrates and Jesus, he had the following condition on discussion
I will suggest that our operating assumption is that it is reasonable to question the validity of the Bible, but that it is not a valid conclusion to say that it is entirely a work of fiction, even if it can be shown there are errors or contradictions.
I'm wondering why the NT can't be considered a work of fiction. Do any Christians here feel that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Muhammed in a cave? Did Joseph Smith really get the Book of Mormon from the angel Moroni and read it with some seer stones? Or are these books works of fiction?

One fact in the Koran and Book of Mormon's favor is that both were recorded immediately as compared to the NT. I believe there is only one version of both these books. I haven't heard of any Gnostic versions of either.

Christians, why should we atheists consider your book any different than the other two? Mankind has had dozens of Gods and holy books. We believe in just one less God than you do, and we believe in just one less book as well.
A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. - Saul Bellow

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Re: NT vs. Koran vs. Book of Mormon

Post #2

Post by Tilia »

Tim the Skeptic wrote:
I'm wondering why the NT can't be considered a work of fiction.
It can be. There are few historians who believe there was not a person called Jesus who suffered crucifixion, rather more who think there was no resurrection; but historians can be wrong. Everyone makes their own mind up, and that is the way it should be, surely; though micatala no doubt has a rationale for his statement.
Do any Christians here feel that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Muhammed in a cave?

Does anyone educated really think so? If one's next door neighbour claimed that an angel had spoken to him privately, in a cave, barn or whatever, without witnesses, what would our reaction be? Would we not check our calendars to see if it was the first of April? Would we not consider the possibility of medical assistance for our hapless neighbour?

Perhaps it would depend on what our neighbour told us the supposed angel passed on. Now what did this alleged angel say? That the message that had been prefigured in the Jewish Tanach, ostensibly by many successive writers and believed for well over a thousand years, that the explicit original message of many Christians, that had been allowed to circulate very widely for over five hundred years, was in fact very seriously heretical. So the question arises, why did Allah allow such dangerous folly to be believed by so many for so long? And if this message was so important, why did he reveal it through a single angel hidden in a cave to a single person of no particularly oustanding attributes? Why did he not go direct to Christians and Jews and tell them that they had made many errors, and provide correction?

Then, if the new corrective message was indeed correct, why did it have to be transmitted via bloody battles at the mean rate of one every other year for well over a hundred years? Is Allah truly as merciful as he is claimed to be?

And did Muhammad get the idea of being spoken to by an angel by reading the Bible?

Of the writing of the Koran, we can say on Islam's own evidence that were no witnesses to it. This sort of work can have been written by anyone, like a novel, or other work of fiction. Any literate person with a copy of the Bible could do a re-write of it, and, I suggest, anyone competent could do it more convincingly than either Muhammad or Joseph Smith managed to do. (I have contemplated doing a re-write of the Koran, and making myself out as the truly last prophet, but the latter bit is just not my style!)

The Koran can be analysed as follows:

a) it is never a contemporary account, but is retrospective, an uncheckable re-write of the Bible;

b) its predictive statements are vague, and uncheckable before the realisation of any putative dies irae.

c) its moral statements are unoriginal, and could easily be plagiarisms of the Bible, with amendments to suit a different theology.
One fact in the Koran and Book of Mormon's favor is that both were recorded immediately as compared to the NT.
This is a common but misguided comment made by those who have not studied the history of language. It is only recently that the mass of people passed on lore by means of writing. The spoken word, passed by fathers to sons, by storytellers to courts and commoners, by medieval jongleurs and troubadors to audiences throughout Europe, was the principle means of cultural transmission even after the advent of printing, and even today there are not a few in the West, let alone the third world, whose main means of communication is by tongue and ear. Moreover, the memory capacities of people for whom there was no easy method of reference by book or computer file often puts most of us to shame. This type of transmission is also very difficult to corrupt, unlike today, when a newspaper editor can at a stroke 'decide' what half a nation thinks.

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Post #3

Post by micatala »

Tim wrote:I'm wondering why the NT can't be considered a work of fiction. Do any Christians here feel that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Muhammed in a cave? Did Joseph Smith really get the Book of Mormon from the angel Moroni and read it with some seer stones? Or are these books works of fiction?
I think Tilia makes some good points with regards to the Koran. Both the Koran and the Book of Mormon are the works a single individuals, while even the New Testament is the work of upwards of 8 different authors. Because of this, I think it is harder to say that ALL of it has to be fiction, because one really needs to address each of the authors, or each of the books, or perhaps even various passages of the individual books separately.

Alluding back to the Socrates thread, I think it is reasonable to say that some of what Plato has Socrates say in his dialogues is close to what Socrates actually did say or believe. However, scholars are mostly agreed that in Plato's later works, the words Socrates speaks are really Plato's own. Would we classify all of Plato as 'fiction?'

On the face of it, there is no reason that this same phenomenon could not have happened in the gospel's or the other New Testament works.

One fact in the Koran and Book of Mormon's favor is that both were recorded immediately as compared to the NT. I believe there is only one version of both these books. I haven't heard of any Gnostic versions of either.
I think the intentions and reliability of the authors is more important in deciding whether the events recorded actually occurred than the time of writing, although I would agree that a lapse of time between the events and the recording of the events would tend to increase the inaccuracies in the record and the possibility that fictitious events were added. If all the events described in the gospel's were entirely fictitious, then the time of writing is really irrelevant.

With respect to LUke, for example, we at least know that the intent of the author was to provide as reliable an account of events as possible.

I also think we need to keep in mind that the world-view of these authors was very much different than our own. They would have been much more accepting of 'supernatural events' than we, and so, even in recording events that actually did happen, they may have been inclined to see supernatural causes where we would see natural ones upon witnessing the same events. This world-view does not mean that the events they recorded through the lens of this world-view were entirely fictional.

Christians, why should we atheists consider your book any different than the other two? Mankind has had dozens of Gods and holy books. We believe in just one less God than you do, and we believe in just one less book as well.
I hope Tilia and I have at least started to answer this question. Certainly I accept that there are reasons to be skeptical. However, I don't think that it is a valid conclusion to say that 'all Holy Books are created equal.' All I'm suggesting is that we evaluate each on its merits, and that we do so understanding the sometimes complicated history and authorship of the Bible. I will admit up front I am not that familiar with the Koran and am even less familiar with the Book of Mormon, but just based on the considerations mentioned above, I think there are significant differences between these books and the Bible.

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Post #4

Post by AlAyeti »

I'm wondering why the NT can't be considered a work of fiction. Do any Christians here feel that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Muhammed in a cave? Did Joseph Smith really get the Book of Mormon from the angel Moroni and read it with some seer stones? Or are these books works of fiction?
Many people hold the NT to be nonsense as well as fiction. That is their right. The Angel Gabriel contradicted himslef in the Koran and Morminism is extremely wierd.

There is nothing inherently non-Christian "in" the Book of Mormon. It is when you get into the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price that Mormonism sinks into oblivion. God lives on a planet near a star called Kolob in Mormonism (Book of Abraham). To attain godhood in Mormonism you must have multiple wives in heaven (D5C 132).

The Koran disavows the crucifixion and of course the resurrection. Gabriel brought a different gospel to Mohammad in a cave than he did to Mary and John's dad. Strange that an Angel from God got things mixed up.
One fact in the Koran and Book of Mormon's favor is that both were recorded immediately as compared to the NT. I believe there is only one version of both these books. I haven't heard of any Gnostic versions of either.
The Book of Mormon has been changed to reflect better Christianity since it was written by Joseph Smith. I have older versions that were changed for political correctness. The Bible is steadfast from age to age. The Koran is wrong on Biblical statements in many places. Didn't Gabriel know what was written in the Torah or the Gospels? Both religions were written down well after the Bible was compiled and oppose the Bible's statements. Mohammad like Smith did not write their reeligions down Other people wrote down what they were told by each guy. Creepy similarities, both espouse multiple wives for the founder. How convenient. This just proves that ulterior motives, plagery and deceit was employed. Not solid foundation.
Christians, why should we atheists consider your book any different than the other two? Mankind has had dozens of Gods and holy books. We believe in just one less God than you do, and we believe in just one less book as well.
The Bible is 66 books not one. Atheists do not want to believe in any god.

The teachings of Jesus may be the most oxymoronic views in history. Love your enemies? Certainly not an evolutionary concept but certainly revolutionary. Then as now. He didn't go out of His way to bring followers into His way of thinking then as now, as He didn't try talking people into a religion but by showing people the way to be more Godly. "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Another oxymoron.

Remember that the Bible hides nothing. Where are all of the big hero-failures in Mormonism and Islam? Joseph Smith is God's Prophet because Smith says so. Mohammad is allahs prophet because he said so. King David is an adulterer and a murderer. Moses was a failure that couldn't even step foot into the land he led the Israelites to find. Elijah the prophet was a whining loser literally pulled out of a ditch. Even the first man was failure. Certainly not a religion that makes one all warm and fuzzy. But facing the truth hardly ever does. Both Smith and Mohamad lived unsavory lives but not a peep in their holy writ. Smith shot it out with his adversaries and Mohammad slaughtered caravans for loot.

The Bible does not hide the inevitable even its very highest role models.

People make a big issue of god-man deities and why should this be a surprise? False religions would mimick the real "one." Other gods and lords are not neglected as being worshipped in the Bible. Odd for a book wanting to make sure of only one close-minded view. Most atheists think this absolutist view of their enlightened free thinking. Nothing can overcome rationality. yet 0 x 1 cannot make the observable world.

Jesus is still dealing with the same crowd that He dealt with at the cross. Mockers and those that deny Him.

Strange that the Bible would not paint the picture of the all-powerful God commanding all creation bow at His feet after defeating death itself.

Also, the New Testament was only written down to counter false teachings and not to establish a new religion. Unlike the Koran and Mormonism. Both obvious false teachings.

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Post #5

Post by rocky_923 »

Didn't Gabriel know what was written in the Torah or the Gospels?
I don't see the relevance here. You're assuming that what is written in the Torah and New Testament are correct(not that any of them are, but...). Why would Gabriel need to coincide with the books he was trying to rectify.
Also, the New Testament was only written down to counter false teachings and not to establish a new religion.
No, ,the books in the new Testament were CHOSEN to counter "false" teachings.

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Post #6

Post by Clement of Rome »

I'm wondering why the NT can't be considered a work of fiction.
The historicle method is the system of rules to determine this. We accept a
document as truthful until proven otherwise.
One fact in the Koran and Book of Mormon's favor is that both were recorded immediately as compared to the NT. I believe there is only one version of both these books. I haven't heard of any Gnostic versions of either.
If the bible had been recorded immediately, you would have just found the opposite problem with it and picked on that. Immediate recording has no logical conclusion to greater truthfullness. Secondly, multyple coppies provide confirmation for the translation of a text. For example, when you have the 10 most dependable manuscripts saying the same thing, you can come to a reasonable conclusion that the statement said and being compared is what should be accepted as historicle. Meanwhile, the Koran and the book of Mormon have an impressive amount of criticism as to whether we have any reasonable ability to even remotely know what the original writings said.

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Post #7

Post by AlAyeti »

The Koran proves that Muslims are great!

The Book of Mormon proves the "Latter Day Saints" are great!

The New Testament proves that Christians are sinners, betrayors of Jesus Himself and always needing to repent of this or that.

Interesting that the New Testament wasn't cleaned up in all of those revisions and clarifications to show thatt its writers were equally awesome Prophets. In fact, Jesus never wrote a word down. So you'ld think that His followers would have been perfect little angels uhh . . . according to them.

Why not write that Peter was chosen because he was never a failure. Peter "the rock on which the church was to be built" would not have anything to apologize for because with his authority and power "in the church and over it" he should have written that he was God's man. Why would God choose a failure. Certainly didn't in Islam and Mormonism.

Paul? A great Pharisee choosing to follow the Christians into their triumphant entry into Jerusalem!

John? Took possesion of his palace on Patmos Island to lived out his days with his harem.

Yup, a lot of similarities between Christianity and Mormons and Muslims.

But wait, Mormonism is true because God chose Joseph to tell us this.

But, wait, earlier Allah chose Mohammad and how do we know this? Mohammad told us.

Uh yeah.

Also, oddly, Gabriel and Moroni chose guys that soemhow were Prophets that fought their way into the history books. Joseph shooting it out with his assailants and of course Mohammads bloody campaign is still reverberating worldwide as we speak.

Maybe Gabriel and Moroni weren't going to let the same mistake be made twice. Uh, err, that would mean not making God's mistakes twice. Because we all know that the Christians went to their martyrdoms with no weapons and no fighting.

Yes, a side by side comparison of these ways of thinking show us much.

Jesus the spiritual brother of Satan? C'mon Joseph.

Jesus not really crucified? C'mon Mohammad.

All of the people mentioned in the New Testament as sinners and wrongdoers? What were those writers thinking? Too bad the New Testament wasn't written after the Koran and Book of Mormon.

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Re: NT vs. Koran vs. Book of Mormon

Post #8

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Tim the Skeptic wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:15 am In micatala's thread on Socrates and Jesus, he had the following condition on discussion
I will suggest that our operating assumption is that it is reasonable to question the validity of the Bible, but that it is not a valid conclusion to say that it is entirely a work of fiction, even if it can be shown there are errors or contradictions.
I'm wondering why the NT can't be considered a work of fiction. Do any Christians here feel that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Muhammed in a cave? Did Joseph Smith really get the Book of Mormon from the angel Moroni and read it with some seer stones? Or are these books works of fiction?

One fact in the Koran and Book of Mormon's favor is that both were recorded immediately as compared to the NT. I believe there is only one version of both these books. I haven't heard of any Gnostic versions of either.
Both, the Quran and mormon theology (Joseph Smith Bible on first place) officially tried to restore all that was lost from and perverted in biblical scripture.
🕋
But after Mohammed left to paradise he also left us versions of the quran aplenty.
Abu Bakr, who succesfully applied for the Job as First Caliph had all versions save one destroyed to avoid a schism among his good Tuareg Buergers.
Until today muslims are stricken by a shudder when they take into accord the good posibillity that good old Baky per chance destroyed the real true quran back then, leaving us with a false version so we need exegetic tricks like abbrevation to save the face of Islam.

Thats not the end of it, for the quran also split off into the meccan and the medinan version.

We today are burdened with an egyptian version from the early 20th century. Another story this.

🕋

The writers manuscript of the Book of Mormon received his first changes while going through the printing press, becoming the printers manuscript.

The first edition of BoM from 1930 (now out of copyright) was changed on sadly often enough in more politically correct versions to find more easy the approvement of the government and mainstream christianity.
Tim the Skeptic wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:15 amhristians, why should we atheists consider your book any different than the other two? Mankind has had dozens of Gods and holy books. We believe in just one less God than you do, and we believe in just one less book as well.
You should also take into accord the Book of the Law of the Lord by King James I of the world.

James Strang was a legit King of the whole world as his first Job and same time worked a second Job as Captain of Mississippi River pirates.

A true christian.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: NT vs. Koran vs. Book of Mormon

Post #9

Post by Masterblaster »

Hello Tim the Skeptic

NT vs. Koran vs. Book of Mormon

Quasi-historical fiction.
Novel of a kind(hardly looked at it)
Fantasy (Angels and Demons)

Good fortune with a very broad subject.
'Love God with all you have and love others in the same way.'

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