Luke 6:22-23: Does this give license for Christians to be jerks?

[boatsnguitars]

Luke 6:22-23:

“Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.”

The verse makes it clear that Christians will be hated and excluded because they will be associated with Evil - because of Jesus.

Christians might say, "Yes, associated with Evil, but we're the good guys!" But, Jesus must have known his ideas were hateful. He must have known he was preaching hate, or why think his followers would be hated?

Let's see why Christians are considered Evil.
Biblical Teachings:
Interpretations of certain biblical passages, contribute to perceptions of exclusivity and judgmental attitudes, leading to vilification.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 (Homosexuality):
These passages contain prohibitions against homosexual behavior and are often cited in discussions about LGBTQ+ rights. Some verses that contribute to discrimination and exclusion:

1 Timothy 2:11-15 (Women's Roles):
This passage addresses the role of women in the church and has been a source of controversy, with debates over whether it supports or restricts women's leadership roles within religious institutions.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (Rape and Marriage):
Critics may point to this passage as problematic due to its prescription for a rapist to marry their victim, raising ethical concerns about the treatment of survivors and the endorsement of such practices.

Psalm 137:9 ("Babylonian Babies" verse):
This verse, which speaks of dashing Babylonian infants against rocks, is sometimes cited to highlight the apparent brutality in certain Old Testament passages, leading to questions about the morality of such narratives.

Exodus 21:20-21 (Treatment of Slaves):
Passages discussing the treatment of slaves in the Old Testament have been criticized for not explicitly condemning slavery and, in some cases, appearing to regulate it.

Matthew 10:34-36 (Division):
This passage, where Jesus speaks about bringing a sword and division, can be controversial when interpreted as promoting conflict, particularly when applied to interfaith or intra-faith relations.

Ephesians 6:5-9 (Slavery and Masters):
Similar to Old Testament passages, New Testament verses that seem to regulate the relationship between slaves and masters have been criticized for not outright condemning slavery.

Numbers 31:17-18 (Treatment of Midianite Women):
This passage describes the killing of male children and the sparing of female children during warfare, which raises moral questions and concerns about the treatment of non-combatant populations.

Genesis 19:1-11 (Sodom and Gomorrah):
This passage is often cited in discussions about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, contributing to debates around the Bible's stance on homosexuality.

Historical Ecclesiastical Misconduct:
Instances of historical misconduct by the Church, including the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the clergy abuse scandals, have left lasting negative impressions on public perception.
Did Jesus prophesize this, yet say nothing to his followers to avoid it?

Resistance to Social Change:
Resistance or perceived resistance to social and cultural changes, led to criticism and vilification.

Civil Rights Movement:
Many Christian groups resisted the Civil Rights Movement, particularly during the mid-20th century. Some argued against desegregation and equal rights for African Americans based on perceived biblical justifications. The Christians arguing for desegregation were often Black, or Liberal (traditionally vilified by the Church).

Women's Liberation Movement:
Christian denominations have resisted aspects of the women's liberation movement, opposing women's rights, gender equality, and the expansion of roles for women in the church and society.

Reproductive Rights:
Christians, particularly within conservative branches of the faith, have traditionally resisted changes related to reproductive rights, such as access to contraception, abortion rights, and comprehensive sex education. (By Consrevative, we usually mean non-Liberal, non-luke warm Christians who adhere to every jot and tittle of the Bible).

LGBTQ+ Rights:
Most Christian denominations and groups have resisted advancements in LGBTQ+ rights, including marriage equality and protections against discrimination, often citing scriptural interpretations that view homosexuality as incompatible with

Scientific Advancements:
Throughout history, some Christians resisted certain scientific advancements that challenged traditional theological views, such as the heliocentric model of the solar system, the theory of evolution, and more recent debates over issues like climate change.

End-of-Life Issues:
Christians, particularly those in conservative circles, have sometimes resisted changes related to end-of-life issues, such as assisted suicide and euthanasia, based on ethical considerations rooted in religious beliefs.

Secularization and Separation of Church and State:
Many Christians have resisted secularization trends and the separation of church and state, advocating for a more direct influence of religious values on governance and public policies.

Cultural Changes:
Christians have, at times, resisted broader cultural changes that are perceived as contrary to traditional values, including shifts in entertainment, fashion, and popular culture.

Environmental Stewardship:
While many Christian groups emphasize the importance of environmental stewardship, there have been instances where resistance to certain environmental policies stems from concerns about economic impact or conflicting interpretations of biblical teachings on human dominion.

Interfaith Dialogue and Cooperation:
Many Christians have resisted efforts towards interfaith dialogue and cooperation, particularly with religions that have historically been viewed as competitors or adversaries.

Dogmatism and Intolerance:
The perception of dogmatism and intolerance towards differing beliefs or lifestyles can contribute to the vilification of Christianity. After all, one of the worst things you can do as a Christian is be tolerant of things you call sin, and to waver in your strong, Christian faith.

Missionary Activities and Cultural Imperialism:
Criticisms of missionary activities and perceptions of cultural imperialism contribute to the vilification of Christianity, especially in the context of colonial history.

Sexual Morality Debates:
Debates around sexual morality, including issues like abortion and contraception, may lead to vilification when Christian perspectives clash with broader societal views.

Political Activism:
Involvement in political activism, particularly when aligned with specific controversial policies or candidates, lead to polarization and criticism.

Proselytization Efforts:
Aggressive or perceived aggressive proselytization efforts are viewed negatively, leading to criticism and vilification.

Cultural Insensitivity:
Instances of cultural insensitivity, where Christian practices clash with or dismiss local customs, contribute to negative perceptions.

Hypocrisy:
Publicized instances of hypocrisy among prominent Christian figures or institutions can undermine the credibility of the faith and lead to vilification.

Religious Exclusivity:
Belief in the exclusivity of salvation through Christianity is viewed as intolerant, contributing to negative perceptions of the faith.


Now, I'm sure someone will shrug and say, "Well, that's all humanity! Other groups are just as bad!"

Maybe, but they also don't have a passage in their Holy Text that gives them license to be hated and then say that you'll be rewarded for it...

So, why are Christians vilified?

[1213]

...It is just name - calling and for the worst possible reason - difference of opinion. ...

A fools is a person who does stupid things. If it is stupid to say "God does not exist", then it is legitimate to call that person a fool. And then it is not just name calling.

[1213]

Hmmm.... ...but that doesn't really calling anyone who does not accept their authority as 'Fools'. It says fool said in his heart that there is no God.

If a fool has figure this out, what excuse does a religious person have for believing in a god or gods?

How would you prove God is not real? Don't you think it is foolish to claim God does not exist, if you can't prove it?

[TRANSPONDER]

...It is just name - calling and for the worst possible reason - difference of opinion. ...

A fools is a person who does stupid things. If it is stupid to say "God does not exist", then it is legitimate to call that person a fool. And then it is not just name calling.

But on all evidence it is legitimate to argue that the god of the Bible does not exist, even if some kind of cosmic mind does. The debate is decades old (since it went on the Internet, really) and gradually theism has lost more and more ground. Even Creationist sites had to introduce lists of old apologetics that should no longer be used.

The Christian side never cease to complain they get called 'stupid'. In fact It is not them but their apologetics are lacking. I fear they confuse how they feel with how we describe them. It is part of the game that tearing apart their reasoning is taken by themselves as a personal attack and will try to intimidate you or get one of their proxies to do it.

Bottom line - if you are going to call unbelievers Fools or endorse the Bible when it says it, you first need to show that the Bible case is the better before we even get to calling those who disagree fools.

[Clownboat]

Hmmm.... ...but that doesn't really calling anyone who does not accept their authority as 'Fools'. It says fool said in his heart that there is no God.

If a fool has figure this out, what excuse does a religious person have for believing in a god or gods?

How would you prove God is not real? Don't you think it is foolish to claim God does not exist, if you can't prove it?

Interesting point IMO: You are an atheist when it comes to all the available gods, less one. An atheist shares your position, they just take it one god further. How did you go about proving the other gods are not real? Isn't it foolish to claim they don't exist if you can't prove it?

It's not, and here is why:
Proof (the thing you asked for) is for math and liquor, not the gods.
No available god concept has ever been shown to be real though. Do what you want with that real world 'evidence'. It wont stop you from picking a god concept to believe in via faith obviously. Which ironically is the same mechanism for belief in all the god concepts you reject. Weird huh?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus taught nothing hateful and his warnings implied persecution of Christians that followed his teaching would be unjustified.

While people may disagree with the biblical teachings, commandements and mandates, within their appropriate context, they are reasonable, balanced and wise.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 (Homosexuality)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 94#p994394

1 Timothy 2:11-15 (Women's Roles):
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p797681

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (Rape and Marriage):
viewtopic.php?p=1057293#p1057293

Psalm 137:9 ("Babylonian Babies" verse):
viewtopic.php?p=827065#p827065

Exodus 21:20-21 (Treatment of Slaves):
viewtopic.php?p=764027#p764027

Ephesians 6:5-9 (Slavery and Masters):
viewtopic.php?p=1020929#p1020929

Matthew 10:34-36 (Division):
viewtopic.php?p=839068#p839068

Numbers 31:17-18 (Treatment of Midianite Women):
viewtopic.php?p=359442#p359442

[JehovahsWitness]

Historical Ecclesiastical Misconduct:
Instances of historical misconduct by the Church, including the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the clergy abuse scandals, have left lasting negative impressions on public perception.
Did Jesus prophesize this...?

Emphasis MINE

Yes, Jesus foretold there would indeed be those that claimed to be his followers but whose conduct did not reflect his teachings. Note the following

MATTHEW 7:15-23


15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets+ who come to you in sheep’s covering,+ but inside they are ravenous wolves.+ 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?+ 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit.+ 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.+ 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.+ 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.+

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.+ 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord,+ did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works* in your name?’+ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew* you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Did Jesus ... say nothing to his followers to avoid it??

Emphasis MINE


Jesus did say his followers should avoid the above . Note the following ...

MATTHEW 7:24

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock"

JOHN 8:31

Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples

[TRANSPONDER]

Jesus taught nothing hateful and his warnings implied persecution of Christians that followed his teaching would be unjustified.

While people may disagree with the biblical teachings, commandements and mandates, within their appropriate context, they are reasonable, balanced and wise.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 (Homosexuality)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 1#p1015521

1 Timothy 2:11-15 (Women's Roles):
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p797681

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (Rape and Marriage):
viewtopic.php?p=1057293#p1057293

Psalm 137:9 ("Babylonian Babies" verse):
viewtopic.php?p=827065#p827065

Exodus 21:20-21 (Treatment of Slaves):
viewtopic.php?p=764027#p764027

Ephesians 6:5-9 (Slavery and Masters):
viewtopic.php?p=1020929#p1020929

Matthew 10:34-36 (Division):
viewtopic.php?p=839068#p839068

Numbers 31:17-18 (Treatment of Midianite Women):
viewtopic.php?p=359442#p359442

Oh yes he did. Spite and hate towards those who were deemed as the enemy by the Christians who wrote the words Jesus supposedly spoke. As to prophecy, I reckon they were just talking about the hate and persecution that was already going on. I'm afraid that hate and persecution is not excused by the perpetrators saying 'I predicted this was going to happen'. It only shows a willingness to accept responsibility such as the Believers always trying to dump onto atheism for certain dictators who were rather following their own Dogma -based Authority, like a few religions I could name, and not really anything to do with atheist humanism which detests dictators as much as any Christian, or perhaps less.

What is even worse is th double standards, willing to accept responsibility and trying to shrug off the blame. Not for doing these things, but for being the accomplices, flying monkeys and enablers in the ongoing misdeeds.

[1213]

...You are an atheist when it comes to all the available gods, less one. An atheist shares your position, they just take it one god further. How did you go about proving the other gods are not real? Isn't it foolish to claim they don't exist if you can't prove it?

I don't claim the other gods don't exist.

[TRANSPONDER]

...You are an atheist when it comes to all the available gods, less one. An atheist shares your position, they just take it one god further. How did you go about proving the other gods are not real? Isn't it foolish to claim they don't exist if you can't prove it?

I don't claim the other gods don't exist.

But do you believe they do exist? If not, you are as (agnostic -based) atheist as I am, until some credible evidence for any one of those gods is presented. Until then, like an atheist, you do not claims they don't exist, but you do not believe that any of them Do exist. Thus you are doing what an atheist does except in respect of One god.

Is this logical position stacking up for you? It should, as you have just expressed perfectly agnostic -based not belief as an atheist does and without gnostic denial of the existence of any of those gods - just as an atheist does not do so. Except for one god you apparently do believe in.

[boatsnguitars]

Historical Ecclesiastical Misconduct:
Instances of historical misconduct by the Church, including the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the clergy abuse scandals, have left lasting negative impressions on public perception.
Did Jesus prophesize this...?

Emphasis MINE

Yes, Jesus foretold there would indeed be those that claimed to be his followers but whose conduct did not reflect his teachings. Note the following

MATTHEW 7:15-23


15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets+ who come to you in sheep’s covering,+ but inside they are ravenous wolves.+ 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?+ 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit.+ 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.+ 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.+ 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.+

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.+ 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord,+ did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works* in your name?’+ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew* you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Did Jesus ... say nothing to his followers to avoid it??

Emphasis MINE


Jesus did say his followers should avoid the above . Note the following ...

MATTHEW 7:24

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock"

JOHN 8:31

Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples

It doesn't take much to "prophesize" that people will act badly!

But, just because he predicted this, doesn't absolve the Church of it. Just because someone predicted Hitler was going to kill Jews, and that Germans ought to avoid it if it's not too inconvenient isn't a ringing endorsement ...