The Immoral God

[Miles]

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I only say "immoral" because I don't feel god's actions as described below are moral.


Question 1: is owning other human beings as property moral?
Question 2: is accepting a burnt human offering to oneself moral?

God says "Yes."

1) Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


2) Judges 11:30-32:
30 Jephthah made this vow to the Lord: “If you in fact hand over the Ammonites to me, 31 whoever comes out the doors of my house to greet me when I return safely from the Ammonites will belong to the Lord, and I will offer that person as a burnt offering.”
32 Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the Lord handed them over to him. [God accepts and keeps his part of the bargain]

and

Judges 11: 34-39
34 When Jephthah went to his home in Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with tambourines and dancing! She was his only child; he had no other son or daughter besides her. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, “No! Not my daughter! You have devastated me! You have brought great misery on me.[a] I have given my word to the Lord and cannot take it back.”
36 Then she said to him, “My father, you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me as you have said, for the Lord brought vengeance on your enemies, the Ammonites.” 37 She also said to her father, “Let me do this one thing: Let me wander two months through the mountains with my friends and mourn my virginity.”
38 “Go,” he said. And he sent her away two months. So she left with her friends and mourned her virginity as she wandered through the mountains. 39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, and he kept the vow he had made about her. . . . . [Jephthah keeps his part of the bargain ]

Now,

if you don't feel I've properly understood either of these pieces of scripture please clue me in.
if you do feel I've properly understood both of these pieces of scripture do you feel the god of Abraham is still moral or not? If so, why?



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[brunumb]

There are various arguments to establish this premise.
Argument 1a.
i. Animal ownership prevents the untimely death of animals.
ii. Preventing the untimely death of animals is moral.
iii. Therefore, animal ownership is moral.

Please establish that (i) is a fact. By extension of your argument not owning animals is surely immoral.

Argument 1b.
i. Actions permissible by law are approved actions.
ii. Animal ownership is an action permissible by law.
iii. Animal ownership is an approved action (from i & ii).
iv. Approved actions are moral.
v. Animal ownership is moral (from iii & iv).

Are all actions permissible by law necessarily moral? I gather from that argument that you must consider that abortion is a moral action. Do you?

[Overcomer]

Slavery as presented in the Old Testament is NOT the kind of slavery you would find in the American South prior to the Civil War. I think that's what people picture when they hear the word "slave", but, basically, it was a kind of indentured servant-hood.

For example, if you, an Israelite, owed money and could not pay the person to whom you owed it, you went to work for him until you worked off your debt. People entered into these agreements of their own accord. They were NOT bought and sold. And every seven years, all slaves were released from the agreement whether they had paid off their debts or not. And the man they worked for had to give them property so that they could start afresh. Some men chose to remain in the employ of their "masters" because it was a good life and they had no desire to be out on their own. And that was THEIR choice.

In the result of war, foreign women and children left without male providers would also become servants because there was no way for them to survive on their own in that culture. Remember that we are not talking about a state where social welfare existed or where women were educated and able to look after themselves economically.

Foreign slaves, like those mentioned in Leviticus 25, would sell themselves as slaves for the same reasons that Israelites did -- they had debts to pay, no source of income -- so it became expedient for them to enter into servant-hood as well.

And note that God implemented laws to protect ALL slaves, Israelite or non-Israelite, not because he condoned slavery, but because men introduced it into society and it was a reality. For example, if you beat or injured your slave, you immediately forfeited your investment in that slave as he would be released (Ex. 20:20-21). If you killed a slave, you yourself would be subject to capital punishment. And if your slave ran away because you mistreated him, he was not returned to you. If you compare slavery in other Ancient Near Eastern countries, you can see how different and how much more lenient the institution was amongst the Israelites. So God did indeed care for these people.

Look at it this way: Our governments introduce laws re: murder, theft, traffic violations, etc., not because they condone those things, but because they know people will commit them. Therefore, they try to regulate things so that chaos will not ensue. That's how it was with God and the Israelites. God gives people free will and knows how they will mess up. He issued commands to the Israelites in response to the way they lived to keep society from degenerating into chaos.

Unfortunately, some people insist that the Israelites should have lived with 21st-century ideas and practices, thus failing to take into consideration that the Ancient Near East is nothing like North America or Western Europe in any way, shape or form. C.S. Lewis rightfully called this attitude chronological snobbery. It's why I think it's important for people to study the cultures in that place and time to help them get a better, more accurate understanding of the people and the way they lived.

Here are a couple of articles on the topic of slavery in the O.T. that go into greater detail:

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-ques ... t-slavery/

https://answeringsceptics.wordpress.com ... s-slavery/

Now let's talk about poor old Jephthah. He decides that he is going to buy God's favour in an upcoming battle with the Amonites by making a vow to sacrifice whoever comes out of his house first. Stupid move. First of all, you cannot bargain with God by promising to do this, that or the other thing. Second of all, God has already condemned human sacrifice (Lev. 18:21 and Deut. 12:31). So not only is J. foolishly trying to manipulate God into backing him in battle, he is trying to do so with a promise that is sure to displease God. The man was, quite simply, an idiot. I feel sorry for his daughter because she had such a stupid father.

There are some scholars who suggest that J. didn't actually have her killed, but that he dedicated her to the Lord and that meant she couldn't marry or have children which was as good as death to an Israelite woman. You can read that argument here:

https://www.thetorah.com/article/did-je ... s-daughter

Either way, the take-away from the event is this: It is stupid to try to make bargains with God. He cannot be manipulated. It is stupid to do things that we think he wants us to do when they run contrary to his will.

And note this: The Book of Judges has one sentence that is repeated over and over and over again. It reads: "Every man did what was right in his own eyes." J. is an example of that. He did what was right in his own eyes, but not what was right in the eyes of God. This is why it is imperative to read these verses in the context of the chapter, the book and the entire Bible. When read in context, their meaning becomes much clearer.

Lastly, it's important to remember that not everything in the Bible is prescriptive. Some of it is descriptive. It is a mistake to try to make what is descriptive prescriptive -- which is what I think some of the participants in this thread are doing.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Theophile already hit on this, but since the only response he received scoffing instead of a reasoned argument I will rephrase the point.

Concerning Jephthah, not everything that the Bible records does it condone.

Specifically, one of the main themes of the book of Judges is Israel’s increasing wickedness prior to the advent of the monarchy.

Both Jephthah's oath and (more significantly) his fulfillment of that oath were immoral acts which were not approved by the Lord.

[Miles]

But your conclusion doesn’t follow from those two assertions or the supporting evidence.

Then I await your explanation.

Okay but your evolutionary world view implies human ownership is moral.

Why? Your two linked fallacious arguments aside, make your argument.


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[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Concerning Jephthah, not every at the Bible records does it condone.

.....................................?

Both Jephthah's oath and (more significantly) his fulfillment of that oath were immoral acts which were not approved by the Lord.

Need to show your work.


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[Miles]

"How about you? do you find selling one's daughter, or anyone else, into slavery to be moral or immoral? "

That would depend on what such slavery would entail.

How about as it's commonly understood.

"Slavery and enslavement are the state and condition of being a slave. A person is enslaved when a slaver coerces him or her into working for them and is deprived of the opportunity to leave. In chattel slavery, the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner.

As a social institution, chattel slavery (traditional slavery) denies the human agency of people, by legalistically dehumanising them into chattels (personal property) owned by the slaver; therefore slaves give birth to slaves; the children of slaves are born enslaved, by way of the legalistic philosophy of partus sequitur ventrem (That which is brought forth follows the belly) They are also bought and sold at will, as a result.

Forced labour, or unfree labour, is sometimes used to describe an individual who is forced to work against their own will, under threat of violence or other punishment, but the generic term unfree labour is also used to describe chattel slavery, as well as any other situation in which a person is obliged to work against their own will, and a person's ability to work productively is under the complete control of another person
source: Wikipedia

Then we have god's take on slavery.

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling,

Exodus 21:20-21
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Titus 2:9-10
Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor,

Exodus 21:1-36
“Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’

Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

Exodus 21:32
If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

Exodus 21:7-11
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

Leviticus 19:20
“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;

This then was slavery as god wanted it---His rules. Do you? Do you feel slaves, should "obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling"? Of course you do. How about if you severely beat your slave. Do you try to keep him alive for at least two days so as not to avenged? Of course you do, you're no fool. And isn't it nice to be a female and sold into slavery by your very own father. Nice guy! Of course it's nice, because god thinks it is.


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[JehovahsWitness]

"How about you? do you find selling one's daughter, or anyone else, into slavery to be moral or immoral? "

That would depend on what such slavery would entail.

How about as it's commonly understood.

"Slavery and enslavement are the state and condition of being a slave. A person is enslaved when a slaver coerces him or her into working for them and is deprived of the opportunity to leave. In chattel slavery, the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner.

As a social institution, chattel slavery (traditional slavery) denies the human agency of people, by legalistically dehumanising them into chattels (personal property) owned by the slaver; therefore slaves give birth to slaves; the children of slaves are born enslaved, by way of the legalistic philosophy of partus sequitur ventrem (That which is brought forth follows the belly) They are also bought and sold at will, as a result.

Forced labour, or unfree labour, is sometimes used to describe an individual who is forced to work against their own will, under threat of violence or other punishment, but the generic term unfree labour is also used to describe chattel slavery, as well as any other situation in which a person is obliged to work against their own will, and a person's ability to work productively is under the complete control of another person
source: Wikipedia

The above has been addressed under the second heading: ABUSIVE OPPRESSIVE SLAVERY in my initial answer see above (post #44)
viewtopic.php?p=1020900#p1020900

[JehovahsWitness]

Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling,

Titus 2:9-10
Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor,

Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

WHY DOES CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE NOT CALL FOR THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY ?


Because such slavery, even opporessive slavery, is a part of human rulership and God has authorised humans to self govern . Christians have not been authorized by Jesus to instigate social or political change through rebellion or overthrow of ruling authorities, no matter how unjust or inhumane. Jesus himself was subject to a gross miscarriage of justice and while he defended himself by legal means, he did not call, for his followers to overthrow or attempt to change the system of rulership which convicted him. The Christian message is essentially to submit to the secular authorities as long as said authorities do not prohibit explicit commands of God or demand what God has prohibited. (See Mat 22:21; Rom 13:1)


DOES TOLERATING SOMETHING INDICATE APPROVAL?

Most people recognize that, for various reasons, one sometimes tolerates that which we disapprove of. Most free societies tolerate smoking, atheism or people's bad health choices even if they disagree with them because they recognize more long term harm would be caused by impeding such actions than allowing them. God, who has the right to impose or prohibit anything, has chosen to allow humans the freedom to devise and impose their own systems of rulership without His interference for the time being. Oppressive slavery (and the suffering it causes) is an example of actions under such human systems. The persecution of Christians is another example of somthing God allows but which, we can reasonably conclude, does not approve of. The fact that the bible says GOD will eventually destroy all human rulership and establish worldwide justice for all, indicates he is tolerating human rulership but not approving of all they do.

CAN A CHRISTIAN OWN SLAVES?

Yes, if slavery is legaly authorized in their country of residence. Christians are commanded in scripture to obey the law of the land; if their country legally allows slavery then a Christian is free to own slaves. Christian law however prohibits the mistreatment of anyone and a Christian is under biblical commandment to treat others in a loving and kind way. Thus in bible times a Christian slaveowner could not mistreat or abuse his slaves if he owned any. He would be obliged to put the interest and well being of his slave before his own and would also be at liberty to free his slaves if he so wished ( although as in the case of Oneisimus, he could not be obliged to do so). Christians that found themselves in slavedom were encouraged to work well, and be submissive to their masters as long as this did not involve violating Christian law and principle

Slavery is ILLEGAL in most modern societies so this is a non-issue for modern day Christians.

CONCLUSION The God of the bible (JEHOVAH) certainly expressed his awareness of the suffering humans have imposed on other humans and has on occassion personally intervened to bring relief (as was the case of the Israelites made slaves in Egypt). However, the bible indicates that the time when God will destroy all human rulership and ensure that all slavery and suffering ends forever, is yet in the future. In the meantime, believers past and present, slave or freeman, are asked to refrain from rebelling against established regimes, to live peacably, seek legal relief from oppression when such a means is available, and if not, submit to the law, even when the laws are unjust, looking for ultimate justice for bad treatment from the One who judges all, both the living and the dead.

JW



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SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

[theophile]

The only alternative, should I not like the job you are doing, would be to revoke your authority and call my plan bust. I could do that as well, and as we see God struggles with that very point throughout scripture, i.e., whether to call it quits on humankind (see the story of the flood for example). But clearly God never gets to that point (again, God maintains faith in the "barely intelligent ape").

Just so we're clear here, "revoke your authority" and "drown you" aren't synonymous.

Did I say they were? Let me be clear. Destruction is the ultimate revocation of any and all authority, after all attempts at redemption have failed. Destruction is something that God does, again and again, to eliminate irredeemable parts of us, and seriously considers as a final measure (i.e., doing away with us completely) given our failure in our role and fact that we are a plague on the earth.

But all the slavery, burnt offerings, and other horrible events throughout our history, that is on us.

We've already seen in this thread that the Bible disagrees with you.
...
These are the commandments, which Yahweh commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

There are commandments written in stone by God's own hand...
There are commandments that Moses believed he heard coming from the tent...
There are countless adaptations and codifications of those commandments (as laws) coming from the appointed authorities / judges / kings of Israel...

Have you ever played the telephone game?... Do you recall my original point that all of this is in the context of a fallen world / humanity, and that this context we find ourselves in warps what we believe God to be saying? That it infects our worldview and what we perceive as right?... Do you want a clear example of this in the bible that casts all future "commandments" in doubt, and in need of more careful discernment? Look at Exodus 32, the whole golden calf incident...

First consider verse 14, after Moses talks God down from anger at the sight:

Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Now compare this to verse 27 after Moses sees it for himself:

Then Moses said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’

What you have hear is a clear case of Moses making false claims of what God commands. Why? Because he is fallen humanity. Because the sight of his fallen people incited his anger. Because he did not have the patience of God, or someone to talk him down. Because that is what you do in a fallen world: you destroy that which disobeys, versus relent and forgive.

So interpret it however you want, but none of the future laws or commandments we see in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc., are any different. The Bible itself is telling us to be careful what we read / hear, and to take special care in what we say is truly of God versus the perversions of a fallen humanity. That is our role as human beings as rulers of creation: to search out and act upon what is right.

Anyone who blindly follows any law or commandment in the bible is irresponsible to this fact, and is wholly responsible for their actions.

[theophile]

But all the slavery, burnt offerings, and other horrible events throughout our history, that is on us. No debate to be had there that I can see.

We may have done those things, but where did we get the idea that the gods wanted them? It seems to me that if they were bad and not what any god would have wanted then it should have been made clear right from the beginning. God says:
Thou shalt not own other people.
Thou shalt not sexually abuse children, or any people for that matter.
We have lots of other prohibitions allegedly from God, many quite trivial, so why not those?
Even if we don't have the answers to all our questions, if you take all gods out of the picture the world makes a lot more sense.

You want me to give you an archaeology of slavery and burnt offerings?... Biblically speaking, it's all rooted in the fall. Everything post Genesis 3 is in the context of a fallen world, and the distrust and enmity that is initiated there between human beings, humankind and creation, humankind and God.

It's the beginning of an us vs. them mentality, where calls (even by God in Genesis 1) to "rule over" are easily perverted into calls for oppressive regimes and the enslavement of others.

As such practices become more and more commonplace, they become normalized, and infect our worldview and perception of what is right. i.e., We grow up in a world where slavery is okay, and this perverts us into thinking that it is in fact okay. And to even hearing it being commanded in God's own words... (Same holds for burnt offerings and any other deplorable act...)

This is why I keep stressing this point: the context / world we live in shapes how we view the world and what is right / what we think God is saying. The bible gets this fact, and challenges us to be more mindful of what we read / hear / say. And hence why I keep saying that responsibility for all the horrible things in our past are wholly on us.