The Immoral God

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Miles
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The Immoral God

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Re: The Immoral God

Post #51

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Goose wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:24 pm There are various arguments to establish this premise.
Argument 1a.
i. Animal ownership prevents the untimely death of animals.
ii. Preventing the untimely death of animals is moral.
iii. Therefore, animal ownership is moral.
Please establish that (i) is a fact. By extension of your argument not owning animals is surely immoral.
Argument 1b.
i. Actions permissible by law are approved actions.
ii. Animal ownership is an action permissible by law.
iii. Animal ownership is an approved action (from i & ii).
iv. Approved actions are moral.
v. Animal ownership is moral (from iii & iv).
Are all actions permissible by law necessarily moral? I gather from that argument that you must consider that abortion is a moral action. Do you?

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Re: The Immoral God

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Slavery as presented in the Old Testament is NOT the kind of slavery you would find in the American South prior to the Civil War. I think that's what people picture when they hear the word "slave", but, basically, it was a kind of indentured servant-hood.

For example, if you, an Israelite, owed money and could not pay the person to whom you owed it, you went to work for him until you worked off your debt. People entered into these agreements of their own accord. They were NOT bought and sold. And every seven years, all slaves were released from the agreement whether they had paid off their debts or not. And the man they worked for had to give them property so that they could start afresh. Some men chose to remain in the employ of their "masters" because it was a good life and they had no desire to be out on their own. And that was THEIR choice.

In the result of war, foreign women and children left without male providers would also become servants because there was no way for them to survive on their own in that culture. Remember that we are not talking about a state where social welfare existed or where women were educated and able to look after themselves economically.

Foreign slaves, like those mentioned in Leviticus 25, would sell themselves as slaves for the same reasons that Israelites did -- they had debts to pay, no source of income -- so it became expedient for them to enter into servant-hood as well.

And note that God implemented laws to protect ALL slaves, Israelite or non-Israelite, not because he condoned slavery, but because men introduced it into society and it was a reality. For example, if you beat or injured your slave, you immediately forfeited your investment in that slave as he would be released (Ex. 20:20-21). If you killed a slave, you yourself would be subject to capital punishment. And if your slave ran away because you mistreated him, he was not returned to you. If you compare slavery in other Ancient Near Eastern countries, you can see how different and how much more lenient the institution was amongst the Israelites. So God did indeed care for these people.

Look at it this way: Our governments introduce laws re: murder, theft, traffic violations, etc., not because they condone those things, but because they know people will commit them. Therefore, they try to regulate things so that chaos will not ensue. That's how it was with God and the Israelites. God gives people free will and knows how they will mess up. He issued commands to the Israelites in response to the way they lived to keep society from degenerating into chaos.

Unfortunately, some people insist that the Israelites should have lived with 21st-century ideas and practices, thus failing to take into consideration that the Ancient Near East is nothing like North America or Western Europe in any way, shape or form. C.S. Lewis rightfully called this attitude chronological snobbery. It's why I think it's important for people to study the cultures in that place and time to help them get a better, more accurate understanding of the people and the way they lived.

Here are a couple of articles on the topic of slavery in the O.T. that go into greater detail:

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-ques ... t-slavery/

https://answeringsceptics.wordpress.com ... s-slavery/

Now let's talk about poor old Jephthah. He decides that he is going to buy God's favour in an upcoming battle with the Amonites by making a vow to sacrifice whoever comes out of his house first. Stupid move. First of all, you cannot bargain with God by promising to do this, that or the other thing. Second of all, God has already condemned human sacrifice (Lev. 18:21 and Deut. 12:31). So not only is J. foolishly trying to manipulate God into backing him in battle, he is trying to do so with a promise that is sure to displease God. The man was, quite simply, an idiot. I feel sorry for his daughter because she had such a stupid father.

There are some scholars who suggest that J. didn't actually have her killed, but that he dedicated her to the Lord and that meant she couldn't marry or have children which was as good as death to an Israelite woman. You can read that argument here:

https://www.thetorah.com/article/did-je ... s-daughter

Either way, the take-away from the event is this: It is stupid to try to make bargains with God. He cannot be manipulated. It is stupid to do things that we think he wants us to do when they run contrary to his will.

And note this: The Book of Judges has one sentence that is repeated over and over and over again. It reads: "Every man did what was right in his own eyes." J. is an example of that. He did what was right in his own eyes, but not what was right in the eyes of God. This is why it is imperative to read these verses in the context of the chapter, the book and the entire Bible. When read in context, their meaning becomes much clearer.

Lastly, it's important to remember that not everything in the Bible is prescriptive. Some of it is descriptive. It is a mistake to try to make what is descriptive prescriptive -- which is what I think some of the participants in this thread are doing.

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Re: The Immoral God

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Last edited by bjs1 on Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Immoral God

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Re: The Immoral God

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bjs1 wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:20 am [Replying to Miles in post #1]

Concerning Jephthah, not every at the Bible records does it condone.
.....................................?
bjs1 wrote: Both Jephthah's oath and (more significantly) his fulfillment of that oath were immoral acts which were not approved by the Lord.
Need to show your work.


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Re: The Immoral God

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Re: The Immoral God

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:34 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:19 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:54 pm

"How about you? do you find selling one's daughter, or anyone else, into slavery to be moral or immoral? "
That would depend on what such slavery would entail.
How about as it's commonly understood.

"Slavery and enslavement are the state and condition of being a slave. A person is enslaved when a slaver coerces him or her into working for them and is deprived of the opportunity to leave. In chattel slavery, the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner.

As a social institution, chattel slavery (traditional slavery) denies the human agency of people, by legalistically dehumanising them into chattels (personal property) owned by the slaver; therefore slaves give birth to slaves; the children of slaves are born enslaved, by way of the legalistic philosophy of partus sequitur ventrem (That which is brought forth follows the belly) They are also bought and sold at will, as a result.

Forced labour, or unfree labour, is sometimes used to describe an individual who is forced to work against their own will, under threat of violence or other punishment, but the generic term unfree labour is also used to describe chattel slavery, as well as any other situation in which a person is obliged to work against their own will, and a person's ability to work productively is under the complete control of another person
source: Wikipedia


The above has been addressed under the second heading: ABUSIVE OPPRESSIVE SLAVERY in my initial answer see above (post #44)
viewtopic.php?p=1020900#p1020900
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The Immoral God

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling,

Titus 2:9-10
Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor,

Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.



WHY DOES CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE NOT CALL FOR THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY ?


Because such slavery, even opporessive slavery, is a part of human rulership and God has authorised humans to self govern . Christians have not been authorized by Jesus to instigate social or political change through rebellion or overthrow of ruling authorities, no matter how unjust or inhumane. Jesus himself was subject to a gross miscarriage of justice and while he defended himself by legal means, he did not call, for his followers to overthrow or attempt to change the system of rulership which convicted him. The Christian message is essentially to submit to the secular authorities as long as said authorities do not prohibit explicit commands of God or demand what God has prohibited. (See Mat 22:21; Rom 13:1)


DOES TOLERATING SOMETHING INDICATE APPROVAL?


Most people recognize that, for various reasons, one sometimes tolerates that which we disapprove of. Most free societies tolerate smoking, atheism or people's bad health choices even if they disagree with them because they recognize more long term harm would be caused by impeding such actions than allowing them. God, who has the right to impose or prohibit anything, has chosen to allow humans the freedom to devise and impose their own systems of rulership without His interference for the time being. Oppressive slavery (and the suffering it causes) is an example of actions under such human systems. The persecution of Christians is another example of somthing God allows but which, we can reasonably conclude, does not approve of. The fact that the bible says GOD will eventually destroy all human rulership and establish worldwide justice for all, indicates he is tolerating human rulership but not approving of all they do.


CAN A CHRISTIAN OWN SLAVES?

Yes, if slavery is legaly authorized in their country of residence. Christians are commanded in scripture to obey the law of the land; if their country legally allows slavery then a Christian is free to own slaves. Christian law however prohibits the mistreatment of anyone and a Christian is under biblical commandment to treat others in a loving and kind way. Thus in bible times a Christian slaveowner could not mistreat or abuse his slaves if he owned any. He would be obliged to put the interest and well being of his slave before his own and would also be at liberty to free his slaves if he so wished ( although as in the case of Oneisimus, he could not be obliged to do so). Christians that found themselves in slavedom were encouraged to work well, and be submissive to their masters as long as this did not involve violating Christian law and principle

Slavery is ILLEGAL in most modern societies so this is a non-issue for modern day Christians.

CONCLUSION The God of the bible (JEHOVAH) certainly expressed his awareness of the suffering humans have imposed on other humans and has on occassion personally intervened to bring relief (as was the case of the Israelites made slaves in Egypt). However, the bible indicates that the time when God will destroy all human rulership and ensure that all slavery and suffering ends forever, is yet in the future. In the meantime, believers past and present, slave or freeman, are asked to refrain from rebelling against established regimes, to live peacably, seek legal relief from oppression when such a means is available, and if not, submit to the law, even when the laws are unjust, looking for ultimate justice for bad treatment from the One who judges all, both the living and the dead.



JW



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri May 27, 2022 11:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The Immoral God

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Re: The Immoral God

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brunumb wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:42 pm
theophile wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:28 am But all the slavery, burnt offerings, and other horrible events throughout our history, that is on us. No debate to be had there that I can see.
We may have done those things, but where did we get the idea that the gods wanted them? It seems to me that if they were bad and not what any god would have wanted then it should have been made clear right from the beginning. God says:
Thou shalt not own other people.
Thou shalt not sexually abuse children, or any people for that matter.
We have lots of other prohibitions allegedly from God, many quite trivial, so why not those?
Even if we don't have the answers to all our questions, if you take all gods out of the picture the world makes a lot more sense.
You want me to give you an archaeology of slavery and burnt offerings?... Biblically speaking, it's all rooted in the fall. Everything post Genesis 3 is in the context of a fallen world, and the distrust and enmity that is initiated there between human beings, humankind and creation, humankind and God.

It's the beginning of an us vs. them mentality, where calls (even by God in Genesis 1) to "rule over" are easily perverted into calls for oppressive regimes and the enslavement of others.

As such practices become more and more commonplace, they become normalized, and infect our worldview and perception of what is right. i.e., We grow up in a world where slavery is okay, and this perverts us into thinking that it is in fact okay. And to even hearing it being commanded in God's own words... (Same holds for burnt offerings and any other deplorable act...)

This is why I keep stressing this point: the context / world we live in shapes how we view the world and what is right / what we think God is saying. The bible gets this fact, and challenges us to be more mindful of what we read / hear / say. And hence why I keep saying that responsibility for all the horrible things in our past are wholly on us.

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