What the ORIGINAL SIN really is. And why Christians are guilty of it

[Avoice]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Data in post #59]

My post above doesn't merit any comment?

Which post? Link me to the post you want me to respond to. As far as I can tell I did respond to your last post here.

Posts #57 and #58.

57 I didn't see and have responded above. 58 I had responded to, here and in response to JW in more detail, here.

I read your response to my post #58, and I see you inferred that Satan was given the duty of overseeing the Garden, as in Ezekiel 28. However, Data, that doesn't say that Satan had any particular assignment, much less the GoE. It just explains that once he was a beautiful righteous angel and then somewhere along the way he decided to turn against Jehovah. So Ezekiel 28 can't be used to show that Satan was taking care of the GoE.

[Revelations won]

To all respondents,

Who gave you any authority to judge and condemn anyone?

As I see it, the best you can do is offer your own “private interpretations of scripture.”

Jesus Christ is the creator of this earth, has made an infinite and eternal sacrifice and atonement for all mankind, he is our redeemer , savior and eternal judge and has provided the free gift and power of the resurrection.

He, Jesus Christ is the only name whereby man can be saved.

God our heavenly Father’s word and decrees cannot return unto him empty.

All that he has decreed must be fulfilled.

Christ was foreordained to his mighty mission before the foundations of the earth were even laid. Indeed he was and is the decreed lamb slain from before the foundations of this world were even laid.

The eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an absolute and necessary part of the plan of salvation.

If they had not partaken o9f the fruit there would have been no need for the atonement.

There would be no need for a redeemer.

There would also be no need for a savior.

There would be no need for the glorious resurrection.


Christ could have never fulfilled his foreordination decreed;

Thus the holy decree and plan of salvation by God would have been frustrated and God would have be come a lair.

Indeed his plans never fail and his words would have otherwise returned unto him empty.

If anyone can show by the scriptures a different plan revealed by God the Father for our Salvation and Exaltation, let’s hear it.

[JehovahsWitness]

The eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an absolute and necessary part of the plan of salvation.

I know of no scripturesthat states that "eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was ... part of the plan of salvation"

Scripture please.



JW

[onewithhim]

To all respondents,

Who gave you any authority to judge and condemn anyone?

As I see it, the best you can do is offer your own “private interpretations of scripture.”

Jesus Christ is the creator of this earth, has made an infinite and eternal sacrifice and atonement for all mankind, he is our redeemer , savior and eternal judge and has provided the free gift and power of the resurrection.

He, Jesus Christ is the only name whereby man can be saved.

God our heavenly Father’s word and decrees cannot return unto him empty.

All that he has decreed must be fulfilled.

Christ was foreordained to his mighty mission before the foundations of the earth were even laid. Indeed he was and is the decreed lamb slain from before the foundations of this world were even laid.

Jesus is not the ONLY name whereby we must be saved. His Father is in the picture as well, the One who gave Jesus power and authority. Joel 2:32 shows that people must call on the name of Jehovah [YHWH]. "And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe." Peter quoted this verse at Acts 2:21. Therefore, God's name is as important as Jesus' is. You've got to recognize BOTH the Father and the Son.

Christ was not "ordained" to come to earth "before the foundations of the earth were laid." It was only AFTER Adam sinned that Jesus was ordained to come here to save mankind. Why would he have been given that assignment before the earth was created? Adam wasn't even created then. And I believe that the scripture reads: the foundation of the WORLD, rather than the earth. The world that is mentioned is the wicked world of fallen mankind, as spoken of at I John 2: 15-17. That is the world that caused the mission of Christ to be ignited. Not the earth itself.

[Revelations won]

Dear Onewithhim,

You said:
“Jesus is not the ONLY name whereby we must be saved.

My response:

Acts 4:
8
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9
If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


His Father is in the picture as well, the One who gave Jesus power and authority. Joel 2:32 shows that people must call on the name of Jehovah [YHWH]. "And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe."

My response:

If you actually read the Full chapter it is made very clear that Joel is speaking of conditions that will exist in the latter days prior to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

My comment:

Joel makes it very clear that: “I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy”.

You and other JW’s have a major problem with the above verse for you deny all latter day revelation and prophesy which is revelation.


29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

My response to verse 29: The mission of the Holy Ghost is to reveal and teach all things. As stated above you are also in denial of this verse.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

My response to verse 31:

This verse is also a very direct and prophetic witness regarding the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ who is Lord of lords and king of kings.

32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

My response to verse 32: This speaks of the deliverance of the House of Israel from the cleansing of the earth prior to the second coming of our Savior. This is not referring to the salvation provided by Jesus Christ.

Peter quoted this verse at Acts 2:21. Therefore, God's name is as important as Jesus' is. You've got to recognize BOTH the Father and the Son.

My response to Acts 2:21 This verse actually reads as follows:


21
Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

You JW,s have deleted Bible words and replaced them with your own “private interpretations”. I so state that because you deny any latter day prophets or revelation. May I point out to you that there will be latter day revelations and prophets according to the Bible, which you of course clearly deny.

Here are a couple examples which counter your doctrines:

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Do you have this everlasting gospel which this angel will deliver to the earth to be delivered to all people?

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These two mighty prophets will play an important role in Jerusalem in the near future.

Revelation 10: 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

John the beloved was shown that he would yet have a day when he would do this mighty work as a prophet as testified above.

Christ was not "ordained" to come to earth "before the foundations of the earth were laid." It was only AFTER Adam sinned that Jesus was ordained to come here to save mankind. Why would he have been given that assignment before the earth was created? Adam wasn't even created then. And I believe that the scripture reads: the foundation of the WORLD, rather than the earth. The world that is mentioned is the wicked world of fallen mankind, as spoken of at I John 2: 15-17. That is the world that caused the mission of Christ to be ignited. Not the earth itself.

My response: I totally disagree with your “private interpretation” given above.

Can you show me the the location of your claimed to worlds and when they were both created?

[JehovahsWitness]

The eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an absolute and necessary part of the plan of salvation.

I know of no scripturesthat states that "eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was ... part of the plan of salvation"

Scripture please.

This seems to be a private interpretation

JW

[Data]

I read your response to my post #58, and I see you inferred that Satan was given the duty of overseeing the Garden, as in Ezekiel 28. However, Data, that doesn't say that Satan had any particular assignment, much less the GoE. It just explains that once he was a beautiful righteous angel and then somewhere along the way he decided to turn against Jehovah. So Ezekiel 28 can't be used to show that Satan was taking care of the GoE.

We take words which have some practical meaning and we apply some religious connotation to them which separates them over time with their actual meaning. For example, you use the word angel, and it provokes some religious concept of a spirit being with wings flying around heaven. But that isn't how the word is used in scripture. So, you read scripture and you have the religious tradition in your mind instead of the actual thing the word describes. For example, God, hell, angel, satan, spirit, soul, cherub.

Angel means messenger. So, when the word is used describing mortal humans the words in Hebrew and Greek are translated as messenger. When the words are used to describe a spirit being they are translated as angel. Angel means messenger of God. The capacity which a specific rank of spirit creatures serves. What does cherub mean? Protector. So, in the post I linked to JW said there was nothing in the verses in question suggesting protector I corrected JW. And confirmed it with the JW Watchtower literature, and a scriptural comparison at Bible Hub. A cherub is a spirit being who protects the interest of God. I gave scriptural reference of that being the case in circumstances outside of Eden as well.

So, what is established? The spirit being serving in the rank of cherub was protecting God's interest in the garden of Eden. Who or what were they? Adam and Eve. Protecting them from what? It doesn't say, but elsewhere it does say that the garden of Eden was an isolated place surrounded by "hostile" or more precisely, rugged terrain. Much like a well landscaped park in a bustling city. Eden means pleasure. Actually, Eden was the place in which a garden was planted. So, the garden was only a portion of it. (Genesis 2:8) but it was often referred to specifically as that garden itself. (Genesis 2:15; Isaiah 51:3; Ezekiel 28:13) Then Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden; a much more harsh or difficult environment. So, had Satan been protecting them from going into that. Maybe, at least too far into it, because they were supposed to fill and subdue the earth. Make it all a "garden of God."

[JehovahsWitness]

Protecting them from what? It doesn't say, but elsewhere it does say that the garden of Eden was an isolated place surrounded by "hostile" or more precisely, rugged terrain.

So you're saying that a cherub was sent to earth to protect the garden from .... weeds? Or "rugged terrain" such as magical rocks that would roll of their own volition into the garden ? Crushing the vegetables and doing violence to the flowers? In short you propose that angels were sent to do the garden...!?

GENESIS 2:15

Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it

(could you provide a scripture for the "hostile" surroundings (prior to the edenic curse)

JW


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For more details please go to other posts related to...

SATAN THE DEVIL , ADAM , and ... THE DECEPTION OF EVE

[Revelations won]

Dear Onewithhim,

You said:
“Jesus is not the ONLY name whereby we must be saved."

My response:

Are you speaking of one individual, or two separate INDIVIDUALS?
Acts 4:
8
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9
If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


His Father is in the picture as well, the One who gave Jesus power and authority. Joel 2:32 shows that people must call on the name of Jehovah [YHWH]. "And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe."

My response:

If you actually read the Full chapter it is made very clear that Joel is speaking of conditions that will exist in the latter days prior to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

My comment:

Joel makes it very clear that: “I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy”.

You and other JW’s have a major problem with the above verse for you deny all latter day revelation and prophesy which is revelation.


29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

My response to verse 29: The mission of the Holy Ghost is to reveal and teach all things. As stated above you are also in denial of this verse.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

My response to verse 31:

This verse is also a very direct and prophetic witness regarding the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ who is Lord of lords and King of kings.

32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

My response to verse 32: This speaks of the deliverance of the House of Israel from the cleansing of the earth prior to the second coming of our Savior. This is not referring to the salvation provided by Jesus Christ.

Peter quoted this verse at Acts 2:21. Therefore, God's name is as important as Jesus' is. You've got to recognize BOTH the Father and the Son.

My response to Acts 2:21 This verse actually reads as follows:


21
Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

You JW,s have deleted Bible words and replaced them with your own “private interpretations”. I so state that because you deny any latter day prophets or revelation. May I point out to you that there will be latter day revelations and prophets according to the Bible, which you of course clearly deny.

Here are a couple examples which counter your doctrines:

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Do you have this everlasting gospel which this angel will deliver to the earth to be delivered to all people?

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These two mighty prophets will play an important role in Jerusalem in the near future.

Revelation 10: 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

John the beloved was shown that he would yet have a day when he would do this mighty work as a prophet man testified above.

Christ was not "ordained" to come to earth "before the foundations of the earth were laid." It was only AFTER Adam sinned that Jesus was ordained to come here to save mankind. Why would he have been given that assignment before the earth was created? Adam wasn't even created then. And I believe that the scripture reads: the foundation of the WORLD, rather than the earth. The world that is mentioned is the wicked world of fallen mankind, as spoken of at I John 2: 15-17. That is the world that caused the mission of Christ to be ignited. Not the earth itself.

My response: I totally disagree with your “private interpretation” given above.

Can you show me the the location of your claimed” two worlds” and when they were both created?

Kind regards,
RW