Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

Women First

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

Women First

I asked first!

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

Women First

I asked first!

1) No, I asked first in Post 90 !

2) I sayd that Prayer can be auto - suggestive.
Do you deny that?
North Coreans pray to the Kim family. Do you think this is mre because the regime wants them subordinated or for spiritual advance?

3) I then claimed auto - suggestive self - nurturing of cognitive dissonance is main reason for prayer.

4) You naysaieth. Do you suspect perhaps some supernatural or spiritual gain that comes from prayer?

5) If so, then it is you who are making the extraordinary claim and so you are the one that has to back up what you say.

So now, please enlighten us

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

Women First

I asked first!

1) No, I asked first in Post 90 !

2) I sayd that Prayer can be auto - suggestive.
Do you deny that?

You want to discuss all the false forms of prayer or real prayer? The false forms go from here to there and all possibilities are there. Can you stick to the real deal or don’t you know about that kind?

North Coreans pray to the Kim family. Do you think this is mre because the regime wants them subordinated or for spiritual advance?

Again false forms or false deities abound. I’m not interested in them. Are you?

3) I then claimed auto - suggestive self - nurturing of cognitive dissonance is main reason for prayer.

Fake forms abound and this is included. Are you opposed to discussing the real or do you think there isn’t any? It’s a real question.

4) You naysaieth. Do you suspect perhaps some supernatural or spiritual gain that comes from prayer?

Since I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and walked, I wouldn’t put it that way. It was physical gain. I’ve seen many material gains including other healings.

5) If so, then it is you who are making the extraordinary claim and so you are the one that has to back up what you say.

First, do you know of prayer to the Father of Jesus Christ or not?

So now, please enlighten us

What do you want? Answers to prayer? Promises fulfilled? Or do you think it’s all self-illusion?

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #95]
First: When I mentioned supernatural gain from prayer, material gain like faith healing was meant to be included in that mention.

Second: Pray to the father of Jesus Christ? Do you mean I should pray to my colleague the Roman Centurion Panthera?

Third: To divide between false and real prayer has the same handycap as dividing between false and real christian. It is absolutely subjective!

Thats among the reasons for why this forums rules forbid to call another christian denomination not real christian.

Fourth: You asked for an example for why I think that the main reason for prayer is to delude oneself.

I found that you instead should come up with a better reason if you insist to deny my point.

But you didnt. You not even deigned to try.

Instead you bring up Panthera, or whomever . . .

Do better

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Just a thought, have you ever actually asked people which deity they are addressing in prayer. I work with a Hindu and am going to ask her. The opening post assumption is that there are a great variety like possible sauces on pasta. I wonder how accurate this assumption is.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #95]
First: When I mentioned supernatural gain from prayer, material gain like faith healing was meant to be included in that mention.

Its an odd way to phrase but ok.

Second: Pray to the father of Jesus Christ? Do you mean I should pray to my colleague the Roman Centurion Panthera?

Since Jesus was conceived and born long before your colleague, he couldn’t possibly have fathered him.

Third: To divide between false and real prayer has the same handycap as dividing between false and real christian. It is absolutely subjective!

The latter is less difficult for those inside but I grant you the former is a rather obtuse comment I made.

Thats among the reasons for why this forums rules forbid to call another christian denomination not real christian.

Glad I didn’t do so.

Fourth: You asked for an example for why I think that the main reason for prayer is to delude oneself.

I found that you instead should come up with a better reason if you insist to deny my point.

But you didnt. You not even deigned to try.

I think it’s incumbent upon a speaker to explain himself as I don’t see your point as having any sort of validity but nevertheless, since many christians have witnessed prayers answered that were statistically beyond coincidence, prayer is not deluding oneself. One cannot delude oneself into the other person, who a moment ago was lame, running, for example.

But I’ve given the exchange some thought and I can see why your team feels compelled to refuse to accept what we who walk with God know prayer to be. How can you possibly accept what those who successfully engage in the practice say of it? Your whole atheism would start to unravel. If prayer is NOT mere ramblings to no one, then the whole atheist edifice crumbles. It would just be more just if your side wasn’t so demeaning in their choice of wording.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

Women First

I asked first!

1) No, I asked first in Post 90 !

2) I sayd that Prayer can be auto - suggestive.
Do you deny that?

You want to discuss all the false forms of prayer or real prayer? The false forms go from here to there and all possibilities are there. Can you stick to the real deal or don’t you know about that kind?

North Coreans pray to the Kim family. Do you think this is mre because the regime wants them subordinated or for spiritual advance?

Again false forms or false deities abound. I’m not interested in them. Are you?

3) I then claimed auto - suggestive self - nurturing of cognitive dissonance is main reason for prayer.

Fake forms abound and this is included. Are you opposed to discussing the real or do you think there isn’t any? It’s a real question.

4) You naysaieth. Do you suspect perhaps some supernatural or spiritual gain that comes from prayer?

Since I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and walked, I wouldn’t put it that way. It was physical gain. I’ve seen many material gains including other healings.

5) If so, then it is you who are making the extraordinary claim and so you are the one that has to back up what you say.

First, do you know of prayer to the Father of Jesus Christ or not?

So now, please enlighten us

What do you want? Answers to prayer? Promises fulfilled? Or do you think it’s all self-illusion?

I'm afraid claims of miracle - healings can't be accepted. Even if they were actual events (I've had one or two physical problems suddenly correct themselves because some event redirected my mindset), there's no saying what is doing it. But the situation is that healing prayer as a regular corrective effect is only claimed to work by believers, not shown to work on a reliable basis.

I needn't even comment on 'real'and 'false' prayer. Which is real and which is false is just in the mind of the believers. I suspect the believer, when asked, may name the particular Hindo God her "Community" believes in (when I stayed with a family in Madras, they were Vishnu -worshippers and regarded Shiva-worshippers as enemies) but as likely just "God" aka "My own voice in my own head".

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

Women First

I asked first!

1) No, I asked first in Post 90 !

2) I sayd that Prayer can be auto - suggestive.
Do you deny that?

You want to discuss all the false forms of prayer or real prayer? The false forms go from here to there and all possibilities are there. Can you stick to the real deal or don’t you know about that kind?

North Coreans pray to the Kim family. Do you think this is mre because the regime wants them subordinated or for spiritual advance?

Again false forms or false deities abound. I’m not interested in them. Are you?

3) I then claimed auto - suggestive self - nurturing of cognitive dissonance is main reason for prayer.

Fake forms abound and this is included. Are you opposed to discussing the real or do you think there isn’t any? It’s a real question.

4) You naysaieth. Do you suspect perhaps some supernatural or spiritual gain that comes from prayer?

Since I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and walked, I wouldn’t put it that way. It was physical gain. I’ve seen many material gains including other healings.

5) If so, then it is you who are making the extraordinary claim and so you are the one that has to back up what you say.

First, do you know of prayer to the Father of Jesus Christ or not?

So now, please enlighten us

What do you want? Answers to prayer? Promises fulfilled? Or do you think it’s all self-illusion?

I'm afraid claims of miracle - healings can't be accepted. Even if they were actual events (I've had one or two physical problems suddenly correct themselves because some event redirected my mindset), there's no saying what is doing it. But the situation is that healing prayer as a regular corrective effect is only claimed to work by believers, not shown to work on a reliable basis.

I needn't even comment on 'real'and 'false' prayer. Which is real and which is false is just in the mind of the believers. I suspect the believer, when asked, may name the particular Hindo God her "Community" believes in (when I stayed with a family in Madras, they were Vishnu -worshippers and regarded Shiva-worshippers as enemies) but as likely just "God" aka "My own voice in my own head".

Well of course evidence for God answering isn’t technically allowed by your side. Your whole atheist edifice would crumble. Doesn’t prevent us from enjoying the benefits of special favors, I’m afraid. Your view does prevent you from enjoying them as they “aren’t allowed” in your life. So be it. But We’re not alone. You are.