The Fall!

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POI
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The Fall!

Post #1

Post by POI »

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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William
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Re: The Fall!

Post #141

Post by William »

[Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
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An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)
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Wootah
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Re: The Fall!

Post #142

Post by Wootah »

William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."
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Re: The Fall!

Post #143

Post by William »

Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.
Are you declaring God an "object"?
Image

An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)
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Re: The Fall!

Post #144

Post by Wootah »

William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:45 pm
Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.
Are you declaring God an "object"?
Not sure how you asked that from what I am saying.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."
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William
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Re: The Fall!

Post #145

Post by William »

Wootah wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:02 am
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:45 pm
Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.
That's alright.

Do you worship this perfect God you believe in?
Are you declaring God an "object"?
Not sure how you asked that from what I am saying.
Image

An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)
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Re: The Fall!

Post #146

Post by Wootah »

William wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:14 am
Wootah wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:02 am
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:45 pm
Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.
That's alright.

Do you worship this perfect God you believe in?
Are you declaring God an "object"?
Not sure how you asked that from what I am saying.
Did you forget to type something?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."
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William
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Re: The Fall!

Post #147

Post by William »

Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.
Please talk us through the logics as to why you think that the creator is perfect.
Image

An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)
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Wootah
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Re: The Fall!

Post #148

Post by Wootah »

William wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:37 am
Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.
Please talk us through the logics as to why you think that the creator is perfect.
Happy to leave it as a presupposition. My presuppositions is God is perfect, and omnipotent, omniscient etc.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."
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William
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Re: The Fall!

Post #149

Post by William »

Wootah wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:41 am
William wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:37 am
Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.

Please talk us through the logics as to why you think that the creator is perfect.
Happy to leave it as a presupposition. My presuppositions is God is perfect, and omnipotent, omniscient etc.
Good idea. :) One would be hard-pressed to explain the logic of such a belief.
Image

An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)
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Re: The Fall!

Post #150

Post by Wootah »

William wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:52 am
Wootah wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:41 am
William wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:37 am
Wootah wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:37 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:04 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #140]
It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.
Are you saying that a perfect creator created an imperfect thing?
Can a perfect creator create an perfect object? Can God create God? It seems a logical impossibility to me.

Please talk us through the logics as to why you think that the creator is perfect.
Happy to leave it as a presupposition. My presuppositions is God is perfect, and omnipotent, omniscient etc.
Good idea. :) One would be hard-pressed to explain the logic of such a belief.
Really? You are hard pressed to understand the universal historical belief in God or gods?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."
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