Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)
"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)
"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)
I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?
Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #81The scripture says Jesus is the radiance of God's glory
It does not say Jesus is the endurance of his own glory
The cup that holds the the water cannot be equal to the fountain that produced it.
Since God is the ultimate source of holy spirit both scriptures can be true without Father and son being equal. If the owner of the fountain gives the fountain to his son (on condition that the sheep are watered) who watered the sheep?The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:07 am
My point is that Joel says God will pour it out, not that God will give the authority to pour it out to someone else. And then when we expect God to pour it out on Jesus’ disciples, Jesus pours it out.
That is NOT the reason (and not what I said is the reason) , the disciples not getting the same authority as Jesus was not because they are lower than the giver, the disciples don't get the same authority as Jesus because they did not die for mankind.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:07 am
If the disciples don’t own it as their own because they are lower in position than the one who gave it to them, {snip}
If a Father gives his older son a car because he graduated with double honours from college, that doesn't mean he has to also give a car to his youngest for mowing the lawn: Nobody can get what Jesus got because nobody can do what Jesus did!
Nonsense, the Hebrew bible speaks of many gods, indeed the first of the ten commandement was not to worship and of them (Exodus 20:3).The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:07 am
.... My original challenge was about believing in different levels of actual Gods. Jesus’s early Jewish disciples did not hold such a belief.
PSALM 86:8
There is none like you among the gods, O Jehovah, There are no works like yours.
Why WHOSE God was doing this?The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:07 amI think he was encouraging the disciples and family that were watching him die and wondering why God was doing this.So you believe that at the moment he was dying, Jesus was not at the time calling to his God but simply remembering that someone else did?
JOHN 20:17
.... 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God
I have the same evidence as you have.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:07 amWhat evidence do you have of that? It can’t be the verses under question because that would just be begging the question.
It is irrelevant. You are taking two different titles and saying they refer to the same individual because if some vague writing style and a nebulous assumption. Not a convincing argument.
By saying "either" you admit that the scripture does not directly state that the lamb was worshipped thus it is an assumption on your part.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:07 am
It doesn’t directly state “and they worshiped the One seated on the throne” either {snip}
Fine I'm happy with that; you believe the known liars and enemies of the truth were right in their interpretation that someone claiming to be the SON is equal to the FATHER. I think their interpretation was bogus, since in no culture does the word son imply equality of age or authority with one's Father.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #82I agree it doesn’t say Jesus is the radiance of his own glory. A cup holding water isn’t the same kind of analogy as the (radiant) light of Jehovah’s glory, though. “Radiance” isn’t something that contains glory; it is theJehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:35 pmThe scripture says Jesus is the radiance of God's glory
It does not say Jesus is the endurance of his own glory
The cup that holds the the water cannot be equal to the fountain that produced it.
The son.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:35 pmSince God is the ultimate source of holy spirit both scriptures can be true without Father and son being equal. If the owner of the fountain gives the fountain to his son (on condition that the sheep are watered) who watered the sheep?
Jesus was given the authority to forgive sins before dying for mankind, wasn’t he?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:35 pmThat is NOT the reason (and not what I said is the reason) , the disciples not getting the same authority as Jesus was not because they are lower than the giver, the disciples don't get the same authority as Jesus because they did not die for mankind.
It speaks of God and many false gods that are really just made of wood or stone. You don’t worship them because they aren’t an actual God. Those false gods are nothing like Jehovah, the true God.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:35 pmNonsense, the Hebrew bible speaks of many gods, indeed the first of the ten commandement was not to worship and of them (Exodus 20:3).
Their God.
Your evidence that “first and last” can be applied to more than just Jehovah is the same evidence I have for why it isn’t something that would be applied to more than just Jehovah? My reasoning is that there is a difference between using human titles like father, lord, king to describe God and giving him a name like “First and Last,” or the “I Am” or ‘Ancient of Days”, etc. How does that reasoning lead to your belief that those can be applied to beings other than God?
No, I’m taking a description of Jesus in the book of revelation that is clearly meant to be a fulfillment of Daniel’s vision and when you get to the point in that where Daniel was talking about God, the author of revelation puts Jesus. That’s not a vague writing style and nebulous assumption.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:35 pmIt is irrelevant. You are taking two different titles and saying they refer to the same individual because if some vague writing style and a nebulous assumption. Not a convincing argument.
No, I’m admitting the words “they worshiped the Lamb” are not written like that. But it still clearly shows worship of the Lamb. “and to the Lamb” be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:35 pmBy saying "either" you admit that the scripture does not directly state that the lamb was worshipped thus it is an assumption on your part; not actually confirmed in scripture.
No, I’m not saying Jesus was claiming to be God because they thought He was; I’m claiming that Jesus was claiming to be God because of His response (and he doesn’t lie and is not an enemy of the truth) to their accusation.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:35 pmFine I'm happy with that; you believe the known liars and enemies of the truth were right in their interpretation that someone claiming to be the SON is equal to the FATHER. I think their interpretation was bogus, since in no culture does the word son imply equality of age or authority with one's Father.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #83So Jesus glory must be from another source. The source being superior to that which is not the source.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:02 pmI agree it doesn’t say Jesus is the radiance of his own glory.
Did God not know Jesus would die faithful?The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:02 pmJesus was given the authority to forgive sins before dying for mankind, wasn’t he?
Exactly, the True god is superior in every way. And the Jews knew of both catagorizes or Gods.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:02 pm...Those false gods are nothing like Jehovah, the true God.
And ...? What did Jesus say (in red) below?
JOHN 20:17
.... 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God
Yes , since we have the same evidence , if mine is circular so is yours.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:02 pmYour evidence ... is the same evidence I have for why it isn’t something that would be applied to more than just Jehovah
That is your opinion , I see no evidence to support that conclusion.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:02 pmI’m taking a description of Jesus in the book of revelation that is clearly meant to be a fulfillment of Daniel’s vision and when you get to the point in that where Daniel was talking about God, the author of revelation puts Jesus.
The words “they worshiped the Lamb” are not in there at all. Period.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:02 pm...I’m admitting the words “they worshiped the Lamb” are not written like that.
Unfortunately for you however he didn't respond with the words "I am God" he responded by saying "I said I'm God's SON"The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:02 pm ....I’m claiming that Jesus was claiming to be God because of His response...
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #84The glory in the exodus isn’t an additional thing that is sourced in God; it is God’s presence. That’s the imagery the writer of Hebrews is drawing on. Jesus is compared to being that glory.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmSo Jesus glory must be from another source. The source being superior to that which is not the source.
Then you should have said that Jesus was given the authority to forgive sins was because God knew Jesus would eventually die for mankind; I was going off of what you answered. I still don’t think it is a good reason to distinguish between why Jesus simply forgives sin instead of doing it in his superior’s name.
Okay, now put together all of what you have said. There are two categories of Gods that the disciples know of: the true one and false gods. Thomas isn’t calling Jesus the true God. That leaves a false god. Yet you don't follow the logic that you just tried to use to critique what I've been saying. You use it when it supports your view and reject it when it doesn't. That's not a good hermeneutic.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmExactly, the True god is superior in every way. And the Jews knew of both catagorizes or Gods.
Yes, he says that. As fully human it makes perfect sense for Jesus to call the Father His God.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmAnd ...? What did Jesus say (in red) below?
JOHN 20:17
.... 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God
Did you read what my evidence was? How the titles that are shared are common roles for humans (father, lord, king), while the ones that aren’t shared are specific? That's not circular reasoning. And I don't see how you are using that distinction to argue that the specific ones should be shared as well.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmYes , since we have the same evidence , if mine is circular so is yours.
You saw the evidence because you’ve responded to it. Do you mean you think it is unsound reasoning?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmThat is your opinion , I see no evidence to support that conclusion.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmThe words “they worshiped the Lamb” are not in there at all. Period.
The words “God is not a trinity” isn’t there either. Period? No. Because you believe the concept that God is not a trinity is all over the New Testament. So, this line of reasoning (it has to directly say what is being claimed) isn’t sound in the slightest by your own thoughts.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmUnfortunately for you however he didn't respond with the words "I am God" he responded by saying "I said I'm God's SON"
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #85Whatever you call it, it wasn't Jesus' it was God's.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 6:22 pmThe glory in the exodus isn’t an additional thing that is sourced in God; it is God’s presence.
Take that up with him.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 6:22 pm still don’t think it is a good reason to distinguish between why Jesus simply forgives sin instead of doing it in his superior’s name.
I did not say "There are two categories of Gods ...the true one and false gods" I said,"True god is superior in every way. And the Jews knew of both catagorizes [of] Gods "; ergo Category #1: The true God (superior) Category #2: every other god (inferior to catagory #1)The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 6:22 pmOkay, now put together all of what you have said. There are two categories of Gods that the disciples know of: the true one and false gods. ..JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmExactly, the True god is superior in every way. And the Jews knew of both catagorizes or Gods.
1. There is no scripture in the bible that calls Jesus "fully god". 2. Jesus calls the Father "his God" as the risen Christ 3. We must take him at his word ie. The Father is his God.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 6:22 pm he says that. As fully human it makes perfect sense for Jesus to call the Father His God.
If your evidence is other passages of scripture (thus not cicular), then so is mine. We have just come to different conclusions.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 6:22 pmDid you read what my evidence was? How the titles that are shared are common roles for humans (father, lord, king), while the ones that aren’t shared are specific?
Yes. unsound, unconvincing, scripturally illogical.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 6:22 pmYou saw the evidence because you’ve responded to it. Do you mean you think it is unsound reasoning?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pmThat is your opinion , I see no evidence to support that conclusion.
That is a factually correct statement. As is Jesus said the fact that Jesus said "... I said I am God's Son"
JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #86Yes, and that thing that is God’s presence, the writer of Hebrews directly says Jesus is.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pmWhatever you call it, it wasn't Jesus' it was God's.)The glory in the exodus isn’t an additional thing that is sourced in God; it is God’s presence.
No, I’m taking it up with you because it is your interpretation of what God meant. God didn’t say (i.e., there is no verse that directly says) something like “I, the Lord, am giving Jesus the authority to forgive sins because Jesus will die for the faithful.” These books weren’t written to settle our exact debate. There isn’t a verse directly addressing our question in our exact terms, so we both have interpretations that it is our burden to support.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pmTake that up with him.still don’t think it is a good reason to distinguish between why Jesus simply forgives sin instead of doing it in his superior’s name.
But to the Jews these are “inferior” gods precisely because they are false ones. You are using “inferior” in a broader way than they did.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pmI did not say "There are two categories of Gods ...the true one and false gods" I said,"True god is superior in every way. And the Jews knew of both catagorizes [of] Gods "; ergo Category #1: The true God (superior) Category #2: every other god (inferior to catagory #1)
I didn’t mention any passages of scripture as my evidence. I showed how the titles that are shared are common roles for humans, while the specific names/titles are ones that don’t have common roles for humans. There aren’t “ancients of days” and “firsts and lasts” (and others we haven’t talked about) in human societies. Humans who respect God aren't going to take titles that belong to Him alone. Your defense seems to be something like "since they take father, lord, they can take any name."JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pmIf your evidence is other passages of scripture (thus not cicular), then so is mine. We have just come to different conclusions.Did you read what my evidence was? How the titles that are shared are common roles for humans (father, lord, king), while the ones that aren’t shared are specific?
Okay, but that fact is irrelevant to analyzing a specific reasoning you used to support your claim about what Jesus saying that means. You said Rev 5:13 doesn’t say the exact phrase “they worshiped the Lamb,” so that means “they worshiped the Lamb” must be untrue. If you were consistent, then you would also have to say that about “God is not a trinity” because no verse says that exact phrase. You used a very bad principle to avoid the clear text in Rev 5:13 that the Lamb is being worshiped, but ignore that principle when it comes to a belief you hold.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pmThat is a factually correct statement. As is Jesus said the fact that Jesus said "... I said I am God's Son"The words “God is not a trinity” isn’t there either.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #87To all JW's
The problem you all have is that you do not understand the God the Fathere did not create this heaven and this earth. Yes it was the Father's plan of course. The 4th was created by his first begotten Son under his direction.
His first begotten spirit son is Jesus Christ who was the creator of this earth and all that is therein. Jesus Christ is also the only one of his spirit sons who was also begotten by God the Father in the flesh.
Since you deny that Jesus the Christ , the very Messiah is Immanuel or God with us and form your own man determined belief that Jehovah is somehow God the Father, which is determined by your own deductive reasoning
and not by revelation of the Holy Ghost, then your conclusions are in error.
It is also very clear that you deny the witness of the Holy Ghost who can reveal all thing to us. So by your own disbelief you are left to your own devises to form your worship of a "God without "Flesh and Bone".
The problem you all have is that you do not understand the God the Fathere did not create this heaven and this earth. Yes it was the Father's plan of course. The 4th was created by his first begotten Son under his direction.
His first begotten spirit son is Jesus Christ who was the creator of this earth and all that is therein. Jesus Christ is also the only one of his spirit sons who was also begotten by God the Father in the flesh.
Since you deny that Jesus the Christ , the very Messiah is Immanuel or God with us and form your own man determined belief that Jehovah is somehow God the Father, which is determined by your own deductive reasoning
and not by revelation of the Holy Ghost, then your conclusions are in error.
It is also very clear that you deny the witness of the Holy Ghost who can reveal all thing to us. So by your own disbelief you are left to your own devises to form your worship of a "God without "Flesh and Bone".
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #88To all JW's
The problem you all have is that you do not understand the God the Fathere did not create this heaven and this earth. Yes it was the Father's plan of course. The 4th was created by his first begotten Son under his direction.
His first begotten spirit son is Jesus Christ who was the creator of this earth and all that is therein. Jesus Christ is also the only one of his spirit sons who was also begotten by God the Father in the flesh.
Since you deny that Jesus the Christ , the very Messiah is Immanuel or God with us and form your own man determined belief that Jehovah is somehow God the Father, which is determined by your own deductive reasoning
and not by revelation of the Holy Ghost, then your conclusions are in error.
It is also very clear that you deny the witness of the Holy Ghost who can reveal all thing to us. So by your own disbelief you are left to your own devices to form your worship of a "God without "Flesh and Bone”.
The problem you all have is that you do not understand the God the Fathere did not create this heaven and this earth. Yes it was the Father's plan of course. The 4th was created by his first begotten Son under his direction.
His first begotten spirit son is Jesus Christ who was the creator of this earth and all that is therein. Jesus Christ is also the only one of his spirit sons who was also begotten by God the Father in the flesh.
Since you deny that Jesus the Christ , the very Messiah is Immanuel or God with us and form your own man determined belief that Jehovah is somehow God the Father, which is determined by your own deductive reasoning
and not by revelation of the Holy Ghost, then your conclusions are in error.
It is also very clear that you deny the witness of the Holy Ghost who can reveal all thing to us. So by your own disbelief you are left to your own devices to form your worship of a "God without "Flesh and Bone”.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #89By saying "Yes" you admit it wasnt Jesus - so whatever it is/ whatever we interpret it to be, it did not originate with Jesus (if did, it would be his(Jesus') glory) The originator thus remains superior to the he who is not the originator. And again you admit it wasnt Jesus so it could not have originate with him.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 8:19 amYes...JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pm
Whatever you call it, it wasn't Jesus' it was God's.)
I'm not here to debate you feelings; if you have a valid counterargument present it : but "don’t think it is a good reason " isnt a counterargument its how you feel about the argument which is irrelevant.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 8:19 amNo, I’m taking it up with you because it is your interpretation of what God meant.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pmTake that up with him.still don’t think it is a good reason to distinguish between why Jesus simply forgives sin instead of doing it in his superior’s name.
Prove that is the caseThe Tanager wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 8:19 amBut to the Jews these are “inferior” gods precisely because they are false ones. You are using “inferior” in a broader way than they did.
If your evidence is non-scripural, I reject it.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 8:19 amI didn’t mention any passages of scripture as my evidence.
How can Jesus explicit statement about having a God be irrelevant in a discussion about what he meant when he explained his identity within the context of his position in relation to The Father?The Tanager wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 8:19 amOkay, but that fact is irrelevant to analyzing a specific reasoning you used to support your claim about what Jesus saying that means.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:11 pmThat is a factually correct statement. As is Jesus said the fact that Jesus said "... I said I am God's Son"The words “God is not a trinity” isn’t there either.
I said no such thing.The Tanager wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 8:19 am...You said Rev 5:13 doesn’t say the exact phrase “they worshiped the Lamb,” so that means “they worshiped the Lamb” must be untrue.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun May 12, 2024 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #90Duplicate. Sorry.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun May 12, 2024 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8