Did God restore Israel in 1948?

[dad1]

Israel must be back in the land in the end time according to the bible. Some people suggest that God brought them back, and that they are now fulfilling prophesy such as the desert blooming like a rose etc. Can anyone support that idea? Several denominations do make such claims.

In the end, after the remnant repents and Jesus returns, is when God restores believing Israel to the land. Not, as far as I can tell, in 1948. So, there are good bible teaching preachers that seem to think otherwise (Jack Hibbs, Behold Israel, Jan Markell, James Kaddis, Bret meador, etc etc). The thread is for someone to support their claims. In other threads I have not seen this done yet.

[1213]

...
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away...


There is no way to fully accept Christ and at the same time hold on to the notion that The Law is still in operation; for in doing so you reject the idea that he (Jesus) accomplished /fulfilled the law. If you accept that Christ was the purpose and the fulfillement of the law, then what did he himself say would happen to the law when it was fulfilled/accomplished?...

Sorry, I can't ignore the "till heaven and earth pass away". I don't think it has yet happened.

I believe everyone should fulfill the law, because:

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet,"{TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"} and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

I think it is part of the new covenant that includes law written in the hearts of the people.

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen,{TR reads "neighbor" instead of "fellow citizen"} Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Heb. 8:8-12 (Jer. 31:31-34)

[JehovahsWitness]

The covenant makes no provision for Priesthood for other nations, it was strictly for the nation of Israel only. Can you explain how the there can be a Priesthood (and a kingship) " for other nations" without amending (changing: adding something and removing other things) or replacing the Mosaic law covenant?

I don't say the law is the only thing. Also other deals are possible at the same time.

Are you suggesting a New Covenant ?

In other words, since the old covenant did not allow for any but a natural Levites to be Priests, ( and That covenant cannot be amended, neither can a letter of even one of those laws be removed) I'm going to install a NEW COVENANT which WILL allow for a royal kingship not based on tribe or even nationality. Since the first covenant says NO and the second one one say YES, in order for this "new deal" to be legal, the "old deal" (which excluded non-levites from priesthood) is thereby rendered NULL and VOID

If thats what you mean, then yes, that is exactly what Paul is trying to explain in the book of ROMANS. If that's not what you mean , please explain his your "new deal" can co-exist with the Mosaic law covenant. The laws of the Mosaic law were BINDING on the nation of Israel, so please dont suggest something came along that said : "You know the part of the deal that said you have to keep all these laws" well the law is STILL in operation, but that word that "ALL" (three little letters) has been changed to "some". Did Jesus say a few letters of the law can be changed?

[JehovahsWitness]

I believe everyone should fulfill the law

Which law are you refering to above when you said ? Are you refering to ...

(a) The Mosaic Law : The law that Paul was referring to in much of his writings, namely the 613 laws of the MOSAIC LAW COVENANT?

(b) The New Covenant Law : The LAW OF CHRIST which replaced the above at his death when the law (a) was abolished?

(c) .... other [Please explain]

[JehovahsWitness]

Sorry, I can't ignore the "till heaven and earth pass away"

Nobody's asking you to, I am just asking you to understand the language. Please read the following. ....

New Living Translation
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.


New King James Version
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

NASB 1977
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

Amplified Bible
For I assure you and most solemnly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke [of the pen] will pass from the Law until all things [which it foreshadows] are accomplished.

Jesus is saying (hyperbolically) that something will never happen but you misunderstand the LANGUAGE, he is not saying the law will never pass away, he is saying the law will never pass away UNFULFILLED. The only way for the for the law not To be fulfilled is for heaven and earth pass away and that will never happen.

To illustrate: A young woman is engaged to a young man. She says to him, "I will not sleep with you UNTIL WE ARE MARRIED. Pigs will fly before you get me to have sex with you before we wed".

Since Pigs will never fly (just as the moon will not pass away) is she saying she will never sleep with the young man? Or is she not rather saying she will never break the agreed terms of their present engagement?

In s similar way the Mosaic law with its hundreds of Laws (yes they were HUNDREDS of laws, not Ten with 600+ optional suggestions) ...the Law was an agreement only UNTIL its purpose was ***fulfilled***, namely to help identify the Messiah and his role. Just as girl would only sleep with her betrothed after marriage, the law could only "pass away" (be superceded by its superior contract) AFTER it had been fulfilled and the "heaven and earth pass away" before the law goes UNFULFILLED

So the only question is: Did Christ fulfill the law or not?

[MilesJBennell]

So when the Messiah arrived the Jews no longer had to obey the law - what do you call a law you dont have to keep and for which there is no legal consequences for breaking.

Yes. You could call such a law, "The Law of Love".

(The law of gravity can at no time be defied without consequence; indeed every living thing on the planet from its creation until today is obliged to obey the law of gravity . Planes do not break the law of gravity they fly because their design conforms to various other laws-aerodynamics - that exist in conjunction with the gravitational forces )

In the same way, a man does not break the law against lying to the police when he tells the Gestapo he has not seen the Jew hiding in his barn.

[JehovahsWitness]

So when the Messiah arrived the Jews no longer had to obey the law - what do you call a law you dont have to keep and for which there is no legal consequences for breaking.

Yes. ...

Indeed. What did the Apotle Paul call it?

HEBREWS 8:13 (ESV)

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete

What is the word in red above in the quotation ?

[MilesJBennell]

So when the Messiah arrived the Jews no longer had to obey the law - what do you call a law you dont have to keep and for which there is no legal consequences for breaking.

Yes. ...

Indeed. What did the Apotle Paul call it?

HEBREWS 8:13 (ESV)

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete

What is the word in red above in the quotation ?

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #176]

Read the whole chapter again, and read chapter 9 as well.

You will see that the old covenant with it's rituals and blood of animals was not able to cleanse us from our sins once and forever, and that the new covenant based in the blood of Jesus was able to give us all entry into the holy place forever. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ and the law remains.

[JehovahsWitness]

You will see that the old covenant with it's rituals and blood of animals was not able to cleanse us from our sins once and forever, and that the new covenant based in the blood of Jesus was able to give us all entry into the holy place forever. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ and the law remains.

We are in complete agreement- exceptyou believe (if I have understood you correctly) that the old covenant is still in force and its laws are not obsolete. So, I ask again what is the word from Paul's writings below in red? Can you see the word?

HEBREWS 8:13 (ESV)

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete

[MilesJBennell]

We are in complete agreement- exceptyou believe (if I have understood you correctly) that the old covenant is still in force and its laws are not obsolete. So, I ask again what is the word from Paul's writings below in red? Can you see the word?

You have not understood me correctly.

The covenant is obsolete but the law is not obsolete. The old covenant was a promise by God to bless the children of Israel and the children of Israel promised to keep God's law. The new covenant was based on God writing the law on the peoples heart so that they would desire to obey the law because they love God, not out of duty. And God would be their God and bless them.

[JehovahsWitness]

The covenant is obsolete but the law is not obsolete.

Can you then explain the words in red below... (can you see them?)

EPHESIANS 2:15, 16

By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man+ and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake,+ because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.

ROMANS 10:4

For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness

ROMANS 6:15

Are we to commit a sin because we are not under law but under undeserved kindness? Certainly not!

GALATIANS 3:13

Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law ...

ROMANS 7: 6-8

So my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, ... we have been released from the Law, ...7 What, then, are we to say? Is the Law sin? Certainly not! Really, I would not have come to know sin had it not been for the Law. For example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.” 8 But sin, finding the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked out in me covetousness of every sort, for apart from law sin was dead.