Our Brain, Our Brain on "God"

[POI]

The default position is that a physical brain is necessary to produce "conscious thought". Theists will argue, in addition, an "external source" is also necessary to give us some or all of our "conscious thought". And by 'external source', this could mean a Christian God, another god(s), or maybe even an evil source, or other such as acting as a 'medium' for dead relatives/other.

For debate: Does the material brain need/require an external source, or 'god(s)', to give us any information? I'm leaning towards no-ish. Why?

1) The only time we get information in which we could not have conjured up completely on our own is when we engage other humans/other. Such as, in a classroom, communicating with others at work, etc... However, when one states they are receiving messages from some "invisible/external source", it seems to be information they can manufacture on their own?
2) If a part of our brain becomes damaged, altered, or destroyed, which controls particular function(s), the brain is no longer able to produce/function in the same manor.
3) Brain tumors have been known to change a person's personality and/or impulse behaviors. It is no longer thought to be because of "evil" external sources.

I'll stop here....

[SiNcE_1985]

Atheists do not believe in any of the available god concepts that humans have come up with.

I think I've figured that much out by now.

Thank you though.

You are an atheists towards all god, less one.

So, I am an atheist towards other gods, but a theist towards the Christian God.

Yeah, pretty much.

That's what I got out of it too.

Therefore you are more atheist then you would like to admit and your words just come across as poisoning the well.

What came first: the brain, or the consciousness?
Since consciousness cannot be detected without a brain, I would lean towards a brain being needed first.

So, what was the brain doing before consciousness evolved into it?

Was the brain sitting there, just chilling...smoking a blunt and drinking a 40 oz, waiting for this hocus pocus consciousness to spring into it?

So, now that you told me which one came first, now tell me...where did the consciousness come from.

The questions only get more difficult from here.

Any idea why you asked this question? Do you pretend to have this knowledge?

This is all naturalistic stuff, right?

Isn't that the holy grail of science, asking questions?

Can you show that you speak the truth as your words don't seem true when we look to the Bible, which I assume is the source for your god beliefs?

The evidence:
Exodus 20:5
New International Version
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Nice try.

Read Ezekiel 18, the entire chapter.

But if you don't wanna read all that, here is a nail in the coffin excerpt.

Ezek 18:14-18

“But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things..

17. He will not die for his father's sin. He will surely live.

Obviously, Exo 20:5 is talking about generations of whom followed in the same idolatrous ways as their parents.

Next..

[SiNcE_1985]

If I had a gun to my head, I'd say the brain. As brains evolved, higher levels of consciousness then emerged from these material brains.

Lol.

That's not how entropy works.

The brain would have to be configured first..and then make its way into the skull...and it fits perfectly in there, doesn't it?

So, this mindless and blind process (evolution) is creating and configuring a brain out of matter...while the skull is independently being created and configured into the perfect shape for the brain to occupy it.

Now, where is the consciousness coming from?

You can say consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, but that is evolution of the gaps argumentation.

Answering a question with a question, to present my position.

Can consciousness exist without the brain? I say no-ish? You likely say the opposite. I say 'no' for the reasons I mentioned in the OP.

Can you use the brain to explain the origins of consciousness? No, you can't.

So then it follows that consciousness can exist without the brain.

If you start off with a big bang, where does self awareness come from, if all you have is matter and energy?

See above. It's one of the reasons I feel a physical brain is required to produce our consciousness. My current position is, if one's human brain is removed, damaged, or other, they no longer have ability to produce consciousness.

What you are describing is a correlation between the mind and the brain.

But, we are talking origins.

If you had all of the brain matter in the world at your disposal, and you were able to shape/configure brains..where would you get the consciousness from?

How will you make the brain become self aware?

Consciousness comes from a working physical and material brain.

Empty assertion.

I do not believe consciousness is instead floating around independent of physical brains.

Most atheists don't.

Again, this is not the point. If a tumor invades the brain enough, their consciousness is either altered or ceases to exist. This means the brain is required to drive consciousness.

If you get a flat tire, your car's mobile ability is altered.

If your car become immobilized after an accident, your mobility ceases to exist.

However, you can still get out of the car and walk (assuming).

Same thing with the mind.

When we die, mind gets out and walks.

Here comes more of that attitude. Please refrain from doing this. You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

All I did was agree with you.

[TRANSPONDER]

Lol indeed. You apparently fell into the fallacy of the hole is the right shape for the puddle. The theory and evidence is that bones evolved around the thing needing encasing as was convenient. This was the case with all critters, even when the brain was a relatively small component. In humans it is so large that the skull appears to be made to fit just that. But the evolutionary evidence shows the reality to be otherwise.

I'll leave the rest to POI.

[POI]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #12]

Let me see if we can propel this conversation forward a bit...

The brain is a slab of beef and needs an (outside or external source) to give it it's conscious?

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to POI in post #14]

Yes. That was easy. Next question.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #14]

Yes. That was easy. Next question.

My reply was merely to clarify, prior to moving forward. Now that we look to be on the same page, I now pose the same question to you in which I'm currently asking another. The other interlocutor used a computer as an example. Meaning, a computer does not function upon its own. A computer needs both a builder and an operator. We know the source here is humans.

What actual evidence suggests that a brain has both a builder and an operator?

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to POI in post #14]

Yes. That was easy. Next question.

My reply was merely to clarify, prior to moving forward. Now that we look to be on the same page, I now pose the same question to you in which I'm currently asking another. The other interlocutor used a computer as an example. Meaning, a computer does not function upon its own. A computer needs both a builder and an operator. We know the source here is humans.

What actual evidence suggests that a brain has both a builder and an operator?

The origin of consciousness is where the battle is being fought.

I will spot you 50 point with the brain (although I don't believe for one bit that nature somehow configured matter into a brain).

You have a brain, in your hands..you took matter and shaped/molded a human brain...now tell me, how are you gonna get this brain to become conscious?

That is the challenge.

I will wait.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #14]

Yes. That was easy. Next question.

My reply was merely to clarify, prior to moving forward. Now that we look to be on the same page, I now pose the same question to you in which I'm currently asking another. The other interlocutor used a computer as an example. Meaning, a computer does not function upon its own. A computer needs both a builder and an operator. We know the source here is humans.

What actual evidence suggests that a brain has both a builder and an operator?

The origin of consciousness is where the battle is being fought.

I will spot you 50 point with the brain (although I don't believe for one bit that nature somehow configured matter into a brain).

You have a brain, in your hands..you took matter and shaped/molded a human brain...now tell me, how are you gonna get this brain to become conscious?

That is the challenge.

I will wait.

Excellent shifting of the burden. It is your assertion that a builder and operator of the brain exists. As stated prior, we know we have a physical brain, and we know thoughts emerge from it. We know nothing more. You assert the source is elsewhere. Prove it. Otherwise, blah blah blah

[SiNcE_1985]

Excellent shifting of the burden. It is your assertion that a builder and operator of the brain exists. As stated prior, we know we have a physical brain, and we know thoughts emerge from it. We know nothing more. You assert the source is elsewhere. Prove it. Otherwise, blah blah blah

Ok, so, since this your assertion^, I simply gave you a scenario where you have a chunk of matter that you configured into brain..

And I am simply asking you to tell us how you will get consciousness to "emerge" naturally from (or into) the brain.

This is YOUR scenario.

See, there is a difference in saying stuff, and proving stuff.

[POI]

This is YOUR scenario.

Negative. My scenario is to state we have physical brains. Thoughts emerge from them. To assert that some outside/external source is ALSO involved is ALL YOU dude.

Got anything?