Why can't everyone understand the Bible?

[2timothy316]

Those that read the Bible, rarely do they agree on what the Bible's message actually is. Why is that? Why didn't God make the Bible easy to understand for everyone? The Bible holds the key to the answer to this question right?

[tam]

Peace to you owh,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #37]

The trinity cannot be reasoned with. There is no reasonable explanation, and that's why the Church calls it a "mystery."

I do not think that is why it is called a mystery. You have been in enough trinity debates I am sure, to know that people present scriptures to back their position. Just as you do to back yours. That doesn't mean those scriptures are being used or understood properly, and in both cases, you and they have to ignore scriptures and reasoning that speaks against your understanding.

We have not "ignored scriptures" in any sense of the word. Everything we believe can be backed up solidly by all scriptures. Trinitarians will say the same, but their arguments can be dismantled easily.

The same thing can be said of you when it comes to the 'two hope' doctrine. And the backing for "Jesus is Michael" is even more scarce than the backing for "Jesus is God".

The problem is that they refuse to look at what we are explaining. We will look at any argument they put on and comment on it. I can't get most trinitarians to do the same with the scriptures I present.

Yes I have noticed that many (not all) people commenting on your threads do not respond to the direct verses you present.

The fact that they call it a mystery shows that they cannot understand the doctrine. The RCC itself said in their Catholic encyclopedia that there is no clear doctrine of the trinity in the Bible.

So where is the clear doctrine that Christ is Michael? Where is the clear doctrine that there are two hopes/destinies/kinds of Christians - wherein some are brothers of Christ, and some are the Church, but most are not?

(I think mystery officially means something that has to be revealed, rather than something that cannot be understood.)

They said that the doctrine wasn't a part of their worship until after the 4th century, and then there isn't really any scripture that speaks of the trinity except possibly Matthew 28:19. That scripture doesn't say anything about them being equal, so the trinity can't be proven by that verse.

When was the "Jesus is Michael" doctrine part of anyone's worship?
When was the "two hopes/destinations for two different kinds of Christians doctrine" a part of anyone's worship?



Peace again to you.

Those two subjects will forever be a disagreement between us.

No, not forever.

I guess there's no point in discussing anything further.

She says as she continues to discuss it (<-please take that in the friendly, lighthearted manner in which it is intended)

You believe that there is someone that is equal to Christ and has privileges that Jesus Christ has and should be mentioned in what Jesus had to say in Matthew chapter 24.

I believe no such thing. You think this about me because of things YOU attribute to Michael, but I do not make the same interpretations that you make. Of course at this point, you are just defending the doctrine of Christ being Michael, the same as a person who believes that [Jesus] is God is defend that doctrine... but it is all interpretation. The fact remains that Christ did not teach that He is God anymore than He taught that He is Micheal.

Why isn't it Michael who comes with his chosen ones at Armageddon? It says in Daniel that he will "stand up" for his people and the Great Tribulation will happen after that. There is no mention of a Michael doing that in what Jesus explained in Matthew 24.

It says in Daniel that Michael 'stands up'. Meaning that he takes some kind of action, but what that action is is not spelled out in Daniel.

So where is Michael in all of this? If he is a separate being and also "the great Prince," where is he in that scenario? And there must be TWO great Princes? You do not give Jesus enough credit.

Michael is ONE OF the chief princes. There are others: the prince of Greece, the prince of Persia, etc. Christ, however, is Prince OF princes. Also: King of kings. Lord of lords.

I have seen a translation where it says that Michael is the FIRST of the princes, not "one of the princes." It can be easily mistranslated. When Michael stands up, it is evident what he does. He does exactly what Jesus says he will do at the end of the age. It can be read in the first couple of verses at Daniel 12.

If Michael is under Christ, where is he in the passages of Matthew 24? He is not mentioned, which he surely should be if he's such a great prince. But he is not. Jesus takes all the credit, which he is worthy to do. It's like Michael ceases to exist. Why is that if he is one of the princes?

I think I responded to these questions before, but here is the part of the verse you are quoting from me that you did not carry over:

Christ is more than an angel. Hebrews states that it is not to angels that the world has been made subject. Jude speaks of both Christ and the archangel Michael in the exact same discussion. Revelation speaks of them BOTH. The resurrected Christ is still referred to as Himself (obviously). He is not ever referred to as Michael.

Christ is referred to as the Word of God.
Christ is referred to as the Lamb of God.
Christ is referred to as the Son of God.
Christ is referred to as King of kings and Lord of lords.
Christ is also referred to by His same name throughout the book of Revelation.

Michael is not referred to as any of those things because he is not Christ. Yes, Michael has angels... an archangel would have angels under his command, but he (Michael) is under the command of Christ, who is the Prince of princes.

The Adversary also has angels under his command: Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. Does that make the Adversary equal to Christ?


Peace again to you!

[bjs1]

May I assume that you are not so arrogant as to think that you are part of a tiny elite who is somehow immune to the Enemy’s tricks?

Why would you think that I am inferring that I am immune to the Devil's tricks? Nobody is immune to them. We just learn how to stand up to him. (Ephesians 6:11-17)

Actually my comment was that I assumed you did NOT think you were immune.

However, I am more confused now. Is it just your tiny group that learns to stand up to the Enemy? Has the wider body of Christ – the 99% of Christians who say that Jesus is God – learned to stand up to the Enemy? Or is it just you?

[bjs1]

This is because "the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2Corinthians 4:4) Satan is hard at work, fooling people into believing lies. We must pray for understanding, and we must pray to the right God. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

May I assume that you are not so arrogant as to think that you are part of a tiny elite who is somehow immune to the Enemy’s tricks?

Its not arrogant to believe Jesus came to set us free from Satan's lies. Nor is it "arrogant" to believe Jesus promise of illumination has affected us personally ?

Indeed. But it is arrogant to believe that only my group is free. It is arrogant to believe that 99% of people who read the Bible got it completely wrong, but I know better than everyone else.

Again, am I correct in assuming that you are not claiming that Jehovah’s Witnesses know better than virtually everyone else?

[2timothy316]

This is because "the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2Corinthians 4:4) Satan is hard at work, fooling people into believing lies. We must pray for understanding, and we must pray to the right God. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

May I assume that you are not so arrogant as to think that you are part of a tiny elite who is somehow immune to the Enemy’s tricks?

Its not arrogant to believe Jesus came to set us free from Satan's lies. Nor is it "arrogant" to believe Jesus promise of illumination has affected us personally ?

Indeed. But it is arrogant to believe that only my group is free. It is arrogant to believe that 99% of people who read the Bible got it completely wrong, but I know better than everyone else.

Again, am I correct in assuming that you are not claiming that Jehovah’s Witnesses know better than virtually everyone else?

It isn't arrogant. If one person flees due to a hurricane warning and 100 do not, is it right for those 100 to call that one person arrogant for following the instructions of the NWS?

It is scriptural that FEW will know the correct way to go.

“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14)

Or do you think Jesus was mistaken? Are you saying this scripture should be read in reverse? Do you think that many have found and are on the broad and spacious road to life and few are on the hard to find, narrow and cramped road to destruction?

Lets look at some numbers in past Bible times and the numbers saved from destruction.
The great flood - saved: 8 out of millions+.
Sodom and Gomorrah - saved: 3 out tens of thousands maybe more.
Jericho - saved: Rahab and her family out tens of thousands.

This list can go on but I think I've made my point. Were Noah, Lot, and Rahab arrogant because they knew the truth about God's will?

[JehovahsWitness]

Indeed. But it is arrogant to believe that only my group is free.

So it's not arrogant to believe I have personally have seen the light but it *IS* arrogant to believe I'm not alone ?

Jesus was speaking to his disciples as a group, so obviously he (Jesus) did not mean his disciples should not believe there would be ....other disciples.

So you are saying "If you believe yourself to be a disciple of Christ and you dont believe you are the only one, you must be "arrogant"? Or are you saying "No, no , no... you can believe you have seen the light, you can believe there are others like you, but you cannot group together and believe you all make up a group of enlightened disciples. If you wander around alone thats great but if you join together that's ... ARROGANT"

Help me understand where is accusation comes from.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is arrogant to believe that 99% of people who read the Bible got it completely wrong, but I know better than everyone else.

I don't believe I know better than everybody else; but I know a man who does ...

How many Jesus were there? 99.99999% of the world were not him, so was it arrogant of him to claim to be the sole source of salvation ?

Was it arrogant for a scraggerly group of uneducated fishermen and washerwomen to claim that God's favor had moved from the Jewish system, with its traditions that had existed for millenia, their glorious temple, impressive priesthood...to them? And all because of a convicted 30 year old criminal, executed as a blasphemer?

We are all imperfect humans and finding the truth is not dependent on intelligence or personal worth. It is a free gift God entends to all mankind. But Jesus himself indicated the majority would not take Him up on the offer, that the VAST majority in fact would not. Is it a crime to believe he was right?




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Again, am I correct in assuming that you are not claiming that Jehovah’s Witnesses know better than virtually everyone else?

Correct; we dont claim know better than everyone else, but we do believe God does know better than everyone else and is using us to let the world know this! We respecctfully request you not shoot the messenger!

We believe God has communicated everything mankind needs in the bible to worship him acceptably and that only Jehovah’s Witnesses as an organisation has let bible truths progressively mold their religion. Because of this de believe God has extended us the privilege of representjng him on earth today

Jehovahs Witnesses don't go around saying "we know better than everyone else", that might give the impression we think we ARE better than everyone else which is false. We do not have what we have by the force of our own intelligence, we have simply responded to Gods unbelievably generous calling which through the bible went out to all mankind. Further, we owe much of our understanding of scripture to what Jesus called a "faithful slave" (our "leadership"). And even when it comes to them, there are probably far greater scholars on the earth, people and institutions that have accumulated greater academic learning than our leadership, but we believe sincerely, Jehovah has not chosen such institutions and esteemed academics to represents him in preaching the good news during these last days

In short, what we know isn't the most important thing (JWs make mistakes and get things wrong as a group and as individuals) we don't claim to know better than everyone else, we dont claim to be better than everyone else, we just claim to believe we have found the best religion and are special to God because we obey Jesus and follow him no matter what the cost. The merit for that goes to the Almighty God alone!

[2timothy316]

Again, am I correct in assuming that you are not claiming that Jehovah’s Witnesses know better than virtually everyone else?

Correct; we dont claim know better than everyone else, but we do believe God does know better than everyone else and is using us to let the world know this! We respecctfully request you not shoot the messenger!

Everyone is free to accept it or reject it. Yet why some do and some don't please refer to post #66. viewtopic.php?p=1149823#p1149823

[Capbook]

Those that read the Bible, rarely do they agree on what the Bible's message actually is. Why is that? Why didn't God make the Bible easy to understand for everyone? The Bible holds the key to the answer to this question right?

The answer is because the Word of God was written in parables.

Matthew 13:34–35 (KJV 1900)
All these things spake Jesus (The Word of God) unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The entire Old Testament is a historical parable, meaning, that it all literally took place as its written, but is using the historical record to conceal his spiritual truth. This is why most Christians think that they agree on what the Bible says, because they can all read and comprehend the historical record (Christian or not). But the doctrines they develop, while thinking they all agree on what the Bible says, could not be further apart, like free will vs election, once saved always saved vs loss of salvation, who Jesus is, the role of women, hell, the tribulation, etc.

God specifically wrote the Bible to cause confusion among those who think they are children of God, yet never were.

Matthew 13:10–16 (KJV 1900)
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

This truth of parables is the most widely neglected truth among "Christians", which is precisely why debates arise from looking at the Bible as a plainly written document. But this was by design.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV 1900)
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing (a WORD):
But the honour of kings (the true children of God) is to search out a matter(a WORD).

I agree of the verses you quoted but one of your statement may I rephrase; from confusion to non-understanding.
You say, "God specifically wrote the Bible to cause confusion (non-understanding) among those who think they are children of God, yet never were".
As 1 Corinthians 14:33 says;
For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.(KJV)

Peace.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Now, with the KJV, we have to be careful how we understand what we read because of the type of language that was used back then. Because of this, some words don't mean what they mean today. For example, the word, "conversation" has nothing to do with speaking in the KJV, but rather means "conduct or behavior".

Galatians 1:13 (KJV 1900)
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:


1 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself (same Old English word "conversation") in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The same holds true for many other words, including the word "confusion" found in 1 Cor 14:33. Our modern day word "confusion" is defined as "not understanding", just as you suggested, however, that's not what it means in the verse you quoted. To know this all we have to do is look up the Greek word in the Bible and see where else and how else God uses this same word, and that will give us our definition.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV 1900)
For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The first thing we can notice, before we even look this word up elsewhere, is that God is contrasting "confusion" with "peace". And the opposite of peace has nothing to do with not understanding something, but has everything to do with chaos, tumults and war. This Greek word is Strong's G181 and is also used here:

Luke 21:9 (KJV 1900)
But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions(confusion), be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

2 Corinthians 6:4–5 (KJV 1900)
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults (confusion), in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

So, even if you rephrase my statement from "confusion" to "non understanding", it still means the same thing, so in this we are in agreement. Just not in the scripture you used to support your correction.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply and to search the scriptures.

As the title of the thread is "Why can't everyone understand the Bible"?
My comment just tried to be agreeable to the thread.
But if we define confusion according to lexicon definitions, I believe it won't jibe to the thread.

NT:181
instability, a state of disorder, disturbance, confusion:
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon)
tumults)
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament)

Peace.

[MissKate13]

Those that read the Bible, rarely do they agree on what the Bible's message actually is. Why is that? Why didn't God make the Bible easy to understand for everyone? The Bible holds the key to the answer to this question right?

You ask some very good questions.

Imho, they do not agree because they have been influenced by the interpretations of others.

God did make the Bible understandable to those who diligently read and study. Understanding takes time.

The Bible is God’s message to us. It is His way of communicating with us. He has made His plan of salvation easy to understand. He has also made clear how He wants His people to live a life pleasing to Him. Other things are much more difficult to comprehend, but if we keep studying, we will eventually get it.

I was not exposed to the Bible as a child. I didn’t become acquainted with it until I was in my early thirties. There was so much I didn’t understand, but as time passed, I was able to make sense of things I couldn’t before.

Imho, that’s all part of God’s plan. He wants us to read, study and meditate on His word. He wants us to spend time with Him. He wants us to ask question and pray for understanding. He will grant our request if we ask Him to show us HIS truth. We must be willing re-examine our beliefs, and let go of prior teachings, even if it means going against our church’s teachings.

Always seek God’s truth. Not yours. Not your church leaders. You and you alone will stand before the judgement seat of God to give an account.

Above all, have an open and honest heart! Trust the Lord to lead you to HIS truth.

Blessings,
Kate