THE ANGEL OF THE LORD IS ALWAYS GOD HIMSELF

[Eddie Ramos]

When somoene mentions the word "angel", mankind has already been conditioned by this world to imagine someone in a white robe with giant wings and maybe a halo or not, depending on what you've been exposed to. As a result, when we read the Bible and come across the word "angels", we immediately associate it with spiritual angelic beings. But when we take the time to examine both the Hebrew and Greek word God used for "angel", we discover that very few times is it actually speaking of spiritual angelic beings or even human beings. And most of the times it's a refernce to God himself.

The reason is because when we look up the Hebrew (malak) and Greek (angelos) word for "angel", we notice that God purposely used this word to refer to three things, angelic spiritual beings, human beings and God himself. So, when the translators felt that a spiritual being was in view, (most of the time) they translated it as "angel", and when they felt that it was just refering to a person, (most of the time) they translated it as "messenger" in order to try and help the reader differentiate between the two. But in doing so, they actually caused more confusion.

So, our job as students of the Bible is to examine each and every instance of the use of the word "malak" and "angelos" to be able to determine who is in view. And we can start with the very common phrase, "the angel of the LORD". I will defend the fact that this is always referring to God himself. And I will provide my first example. This is the first place in the Bible where the phrase "the angel of the LORD" is used and it's speaking of Hagar who fled from Sari after Sarai dealt harshly with her.

Genesis 16:7–13 (KJV 1900)
And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

The first thing w enotice as we study the angel of the LORD is that God often speaks of himself in the first person, but also in the third person. This is why it can be confusing when we see the angel of the LORD speaking as if though he's speaking on behalf of the one who sent him, then at other times he speaks in the first person, as if though he's God himself. But when we can see that God does this all throughout the Bible (not just in the setting of the angel of the LORD) then first person and third person references are not a problem when it comes to understanding who is the angel of the LORD.

But what we don't find in the Bible are actual angelic spiritual beings speaking as if though they were God himself. This is one way we can be sure that when the angel of the LORD says, "I will multiply thy seed..." that it's God himself speaking and not an angelic spiritual being. This is why it's important to translate the word "angel" into the word "messenger" everytime it appears in the Bible. This way we will be forced to examine the text much closer to see who is in view in each case. Thus, the angel of the LORD is best understood as the messenger of JEHOVAH, which is Christ. This means that God is not an angel, the way we understand angelic beings to be, but he is the messenger because he has given us the Word of God (Christ).

Question for debate: Can you provide any references that show that the angel of the LORD is not JEHOVAH himself?

[1213]

....
John 14:10 (KJV 1900)
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This means that the godhead is not independent of one another, even though they portray themselves in a deity of 3...

The problem with your claims is, they are not exactly what the Bible tells. I think it would be b est to remain in the words of the Bible.

But, I think the John 14:10 is a good scripture. It tells God lives in Jesus. As it is said, Jesus is the temple of God.

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple! Will you raise it up in three days?” But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21
For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,
Col. 2:9

Obviously this does not mean that Jesus is the God then, only that God dwells in Jesus. Or what do you think, if a church building is a God's temple, is it then also the God?

Genesis 22:12 (KJV 1900)
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God (this would be a great proof text to show that if this was indeed an angelic being speaking on behalf of God because we see him referring to God in the third person. But then he says this...), seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now, what seems like inconsistency here, is actually very common throughout the Bible as God speaks of himself in both, the first and the third person. That of course is to show us that while he indeed is one God, he describes himself as 3 deities...

Sorry, I think your interpretations are not correct.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

[Eddie Ramos]

....
John 14:10 (KJV 1900)
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This means that the godhead is not independent of one another, even though they portray themselves in a deity of 3...

The problem with your claims is, they are not exactly what the Bible tells. I think it would be b est to remain in the words of the Bible.

But, I think the John 14:10 is a good scripture. It tells God lives in Jesus. As it is said, Jesus is the temple of God.

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple! Will you raise it up in three days?” But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21
For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,
Col. 2:9

Obviously this does not mean that Jesus is the God then, only that God dwells in Jesus. Or what do you think, if a church building is a God's temple, is it then also the God?

Genesis 22:12 (KJV 1900)
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God (this would be a great proof text to show that if this was indeed an angelic being speaking on behalf of God because we see him referring to God in the third person. But then he says this...), seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now, what seems like inconsistency here, is actually very common throughout the Bible as God speaks of himself in both, the first and the third person. That of course is to show us that while he indeed is one God, he describes himself as 3 deities...

Sorry, I think your interpretations are not correct.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

I understand your position, but understanding the godhead (as much as a finite human being can do so), 1. is only done by objectively comparing everything the Bible has to say on the matter, not by picking the passages that best suit either of us. And 2, by the Spirit of God allowing us to see who God is. This is why the subject of the godhead is the most debated subject on this forum or in religion in general.

Not only that, but, if people who were once called the people of God (the Jews), and were teachers of the scriptures, and yet couldn't see that Christ was God, then it wasn't because Jesus was trying to convince them who he was, but rather because he purposely left them in their blindness.

Luke 5:32 (KJV 1900)
I came not to call the righteous (the self-righteous), but sinners to repentance.

John 9:41 (KJV 1900)
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 9:39 (KJV 1900)
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world (the judgment of Israel as a nation), that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.


This thread was meant more for those who could see the fact that Christ is JEHOVAH, even though anyone can reply. But there are already very many threads on the deity of God.

[Capbook]

....
John 14:10 (KJV 1900)
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This means that the godhead is not independent of one another, even though they portray themselves in a deity of 3...

The problem with your claims is, they are not exactly what the Bible tells. I think it would be b est to remain in the words of the Bible.

But, I think the John 14:10 is a good scripture. It tells God lives in Jesus. As it is said, Jesus is the temple of God.

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple! Will you raise it up in three days?” But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21
For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,
Col. 2:9

Obviously this does not mean that Jesus is the God then, only that God dwells in Jesus. Or what do you think, if a church building is a God's temple, is it then also the God?

Genesis 22:12 (KJV 1900)
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God (this would be a great proof text to show that if this was indeed an angelic being speaking on behalf of God because we see him referring to God in the third person. But then he says this...), seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now, what seems like inconsistency here, is actually very common throughout the Bible as God speaks of himself in both, the first and the third person. That of course is to show us that while he indeed is one God, he describes himself as 3 deities...

Sorry, I think your interpretations are not correct.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

I understand your position, but understanding the godhead (as much as a finite human being can do so), 1. is only done by objectively comparing everything the Bible has to say on the matter, not by picking the passages that best suit either of us. And 2, by the Spirit of God allowing us to see who God is. This is why the subject of the godhead is the most debated subject on this forum or in religion in general.

Not only that, but, if people who were once called the people of God (the Jews), and were teachers of the scriptures, and yet couldn't see that Christ was God, then it wasn't because Jesus was trying to convince them who he was, but rather because he purposely left them in their blindness.

Luke 5:32 (KJV 1900)
I came not to call the righteous (the self-righteous), but sinners to repentance.

John 9:41 (KJV 1900)
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 9:39 (KJV 1900)
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world (the judgment of Israel as a nation), that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.


This thread was meant more for those who could see the fact that Christ is JEHOVAH, even though anyone can reply. But there are already very many threads on the deity of God.

I believe "the angel of the Lord" is Jesus and not the Father. Jesus was not yet in human form in the OT.
Jesus said in John 5:37,
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.(KJV)

[Eddie Ramos]

I believe "the angel of the Lord" is Jesus and not the Father. Jesus was not yet in human form in the OT.
Jesus said in John 5:37,
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.(KJV)

If you believe that the messenger of JEHOVAH (the angel of the LORD) was Jesus (of which you are correct), then you must also believe that he came in human form many times as the angel of the LORD and as the Son of God.

Judges 13:8 (KJV 1900)
Then Manoah intreated JEHOVAH, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

Judges 13:15–18 (KJV 1900)
And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD (the man of God), I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he(the man of God) was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? (this word "secret" is the word "wonderful" which confirms who this angel of the LORD is, the Lord Jesus Christ)

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Also, the context you are quoting from has Jesus specifically speaking to the unsaved Jews, and it is because they were unsaved, that they had not heard the voice of the Father (meaning God). This means that their spiritual ears were not opened.

John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

[Capbook]

I believe "the angel of the Lord" is Jesus and not the Father. Jesus was not yet in human form in the OT.
Jesus said in John 5:37,
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.(KJV)

If you believe that the messenger of JEHOVAH (the angel of the LORD) was Jesus (of which you are correct), then you must also believe that he came in human form many times as the angel of the LORD and as the Son of God.

Judges 13:8 (KJV 1900)
Then Manoah intreated JEHOVAH, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

Judges 13:15–18 (KJV 1900)
And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD (the man of God), I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he(the man of God) was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? (this word "secret" is the word "wonderful" which confirms who this angel of the LORD is, the Lord Jesus Christ)

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Also, the context you are quoting from has Jesus specifically speaking to the unsaved Jews, and it is because they were unsaved, that they had not heard the voice of the Father (meaning God). This means that their spiritual ears were not opened.

John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Strong define "anytime" in John 5:37 as never (to any man) never man.
And Clark also believe it that way.
KJV - at any time, never (... to any man), yet, never man.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. )

John 5:37
[Ye have neither heard his voice] I make these words, with Dr. Pearce, a parenthesis: the sense is-"Not that my Father ever appeared visibly or spake audibly to any of you; but he did it by the mouths of his prophets." Lately, however, he had added to their testimony his own voice from heaven, on the day of Christ's baptism. See Matt 3:17.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)

[Eddie Ramos]

I believe "the angel of the Lord" is Jesus and not the Father. Jesus was not yet in human form in the OT.
Jesus said in John 5:37,
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.(KJV)

If you believe that the messenger of JEHOVAH (the angel of the LORD) was Jesus (of which you are correct), then you must also believe that he came in human form many times as the angel of the LORD and as the Son of God.

Judges 13:8 (KJV 1900)
Then Manoah intreated JEHOVAH, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

Judges 13:15–18 (KJV 1900)
And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD (the man of God), I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he(the man of God) was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? (this word "secret" is the word "wonderful" which confirms who this angel of the LORD is, the Lord Jesus Christ)

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Also, the context you are quoting from has Jesus specifically speaking to the unsaved Jews, and it is because they were unsaved, that they had not heard the voice of the Father (meaning God). This means that their spiritual ears were not opened.

John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Strong define "anytime" in John 5:37 as never (to any man) never man.
And Clark also believe it that way.
KJV - at any time, never (... to any man), yet, never man.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. )

John 5:37
[Ye have neither heard his voice] I make these words, with Dr. Pearce, a parenthesis: the sense is-"Not that my Father ever appeared visibly or spake audibly to any of you; but he did it by the mouths of his prophets." Lately, however, he had added to their testimony his own voice from heaven, on the day of Christ's baptism. See Matt 3:17.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)

Ok, can you tell me who is specifically being addressesd in John 5:37? Understanding this answer will help with understanding WHO has never heard the voice of JEHOVAH God. In other words, either Christ was speaking generally or he was specifically addressing certain people. Here is the context:

John 5:37-42 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

So, my question for you is, is Christ speaking to everyone here? Or is he speaking to certain people in particular?

So, it doesn't really matter how men of reputation have defined this word, if their definition contradicts the Bible, then their definition is incorrect. And it won't take you long to verify their definition of (never man) as being incorrect. Just look up the few references where this word (Strong's G4455) is used. Here are the 3 places.

John 1:18 (KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

1 John 4:12 (KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The other few places where this word is used, is together with another Greek word and thus changing the meaning of the word. But, we have to ask, what does Christ mean by saying (in Jn 5:37) "nor seen his shape"? God was standing right in front of the Jews because he manifested himself in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and yet they could not see it because of God had blinded them.

[Capbook]

I believe "the angel of the Lord" is Jesus and not the Father. Jesus was not yet in human form in the OT.
Jesus said in John 5:37,
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.(KJV)

If you believe that the messenger of JEHOVAH (the angel of the LORD) was Jesus (of which you are correct), then you must also believe that he came in human form many times as the angel of the LORD and as the Son of God.

Judges 13:8 (KJV 1900)
Then Manoah intreated JEHOVAH, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

Judges 13:15–18 (KJV 1900)
And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD (the man of God), I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he(the man of God) was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? (this word "secret" is the word "wonderful" which confirms who this angel of the LORD is, the Lord Jesus Christ)

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Also, the context you are quoting from has Jesus specifically speaking to the unsaved Jews, and it is because they were unsaved, that they had not heard the voice of the Father (meaning God). This means that their spiritual ears were not opened.

John 5:37–38 (KJV 1900)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Strong define "anytime" in John 5:37 as never (to any man) never man.
And Clark also believe it that way.
KJV - at any time, never (... to any man), yet, never man.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. )

John 5:37
[Ye have neither heard his voice] I make these words, with Dr. Pearce, a parenthesis: the sense is-"Not that my Father ever appeared visibly or spake audibly to any of you; but he did it by the mouths of his prophets." Lately, however, he had added to their testimony his own voice from heaven, on the day of Christ's baptism. See Matt 3:17.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)

Ok, can you tell me who is specifically being addressesd in John 5:37? Understanding this answer will help with understanding WHO has never heard the voice of JEHOVAH God. In other words, either Christ was speaking generally or he was specifically addressing certain people. Here is the context:

John 5:37-42 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

So, my question for you is, is Christ speaking to everyone here? Or is he speaking to certain people in particular?

So, it doesn't really matter how men of reputation have defined this word, if their definition contradicts the Bible, then their definition is incorrect. And it won't take you long to verify their definition of (never man) as being incorrect. Just look up the few references where this word (Strong's G4455) is used. Here are the 3 places.

John 1:18 (KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

1 John 4:12 (KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The other few places where this word is used, is together with another Greek word and thus changing the meaning of the word. But, we have to ask, what does Christ mean by saying (in Jn 5:37) "nor seen his shape"? God was standing right in front of the Jews because he manifested himself in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and yet they could not see it because of God had blinded them.

Jesus is speaking to Jews here, the people of God in the OT and your quoted text in this thread is Gen 16:7-13.
That is I believe the "anytime" also applied to them that the "angel of the Lord" is Jesus and not the Father.
I also believe no one had seen the Father's form anytime. Ex 33:20, 1 Tim 6:16.

Ex 33:20
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
KJV

1 Tim 6:16
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV