Cultural Christians.

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Cultural Christians.

Post #1

Post by William »

Elon Musk has identified himself as a cultural Christian in a new interview.

“While I’m not a particularly religious person, I do believe that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise… I would say I’m probably a cultural Christian,” the Tesla CEO said during a conversation on X with Jordan Peterson today. “There’s tremendous wisdom in turning the other cheek.”

Christian beliefs, Musk argued, “result in the greatest happiness for humanity, considering not just the present, but all future humans… I’m actually a big believer in the principles of Christianity. I think they’re very good.”
{SOURCE}

For debate.

Q: Is it better for the world to be a Cultural Christian than an all-out anti-theist?

Also.

Q: Is it better to be a Cultural Christian that belong to any organised Christian religion?

Cultural Christian Definition = Anyone that believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise.
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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #221

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #220]
If it is that each human gets to decide what they will do, then I completely agree, but that’s irrelevant to the objective/subjective debate within morality, which is what I’ve been discussing.
Is it though?

If someone thinks that it is morally right not to abuse homosexuals (re your earlier example) and also think that this is their own subjective insight (rather than something deriving from an outside entity (such as your belief re that idea of GOD) then what does it matter?
Are you suggesting that to deny that this GOD is the objective source of morality, one is being immoral?

What does it matter than an atheist denies such a thing, if indeed they are not being abusive to others?
Even if they deny that morality comes through them (subjectively) from GOD, but are still morally good, so what that they deny this as the case?
I don’t think they are the more reasonable beliefs to hold versus their alternatives, while I do think certain Biblical beliefs are the more reasonable ones to hold versus their alternatives (and, therefore, are not positioned equally in that sense).


Without examples, what you think doesn't count as anything we can discuss, to see if what you think is true or not.

Why do you think Bible reports are more reasonable ones to hold than NDE reports.
I’m saying that no human plays any role in the truth of moral claims.
Then how is any truth established as actual truth re morality/moral claims?
Enough to know they are optical illusions and the thing you see isn’t a reality.
I see. What something appears to be, isn't what it appears to be.
I attach a reality to a ‘simulation’ that I don’t with an ‘illusion’, so I wanted to make that clear, even if we don’t (or shouldn’t) use those exact terms in that way.
If (“we are actually the human form”) is true, then you think "illusion" is the better term to use re being in this universe, than simulation?
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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #222

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:45 pm
If it is that each human gets to decide what they will do, then I completely agree, but that’s irrelevant to the objective/subjective debate within morality, which is what I’ve been discussing.
Is it though?

If someone thinks that it is morally right not to abuse homosexuals (re your earlier example) and also think that this is their own subjective insight (rather than something deriving from an outside entity (such as your belief re that idea of GOD) then what does it matter?
Are you suggesting that to deny that this GOD is the objective source of morality, one is being immoral?

What does it matter than an atheist denies such a thing, if indeed they are not being abusive to others?
Even if they deny that morality comes through them (subjectively) from GOD, but are still morally good, so what that they deny this as the case?
In absolutely no way am I saying that denying God as the source of objective morality is a moral issue. In absolutely no way am I saying that atheists can’t be moral (if that is what you meant at the end). What I am saying is that the free will/determinism question is a different question from whether morality is objective or subjective.

It’s fine if you weren’t talking about that, but don’t misunderstand me to be talking about the same thing you are.
William wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:45 pmWithout examples, what you think doesn't count as anything we can discuss, to see if what you think is true or not.

Why do you think Bible reports are more reasonable ones to hold than NDE reports.
I wasn’t trying to offer support for that being true because we weren’t discussing that. We were talking about categorizing different kinds of beliefs, not assessing every one of our beliefs for their truth. We’ve got enough we are already talking about to not go off on that tangent.
William wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:45 pm
I’m saying that no human plays any role in the truth of moral claims.
Then how is any truth established as actual truth re morality/moral claims?
Again, we are talking here about understanding how moral objectivism differs from moral subjectivism, not which is true. We are also talking about ontology, not human epistemology of that ontology, if you are making that confusion.

No human plays any role in the current actual truth about the shape of the earth. It is established by the objective truth about it's nature, not by us thinking about it.
William wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:45 pmI see. What something appears to be, isn't what it appears to be.
As it specifically applies to an illusion, yes, but not as a rule over everything. The computer I'm typing on right now is what it appears to be in a way the illusion is not.
William wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:45 pmIf (“we are actually the human form”) is true, then you think "illusion" is the better term to use re being in this universe, than simulation?
Don’t take my comment in one context (‘good’ and ‘evil’ in the naturalistic worldview) and apply it to a different context.

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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #223

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #222]
We were talking about categorizing different kinds of beliefs, not assessing every one of our beliefs for their truth.
Truthfulness is important.

I am simply trying to ascertain what you mean when you argue for what you claim/believe as "objective morality" or that "Jesus was a moral objectivist" or that morality comes from an objective GOD.
No human plays any role in the current actual truth about the shape of the earth. It is established by the objective truth about it's nature, not by us thinking about it.
It is not as if I haven't attempted on numerous occasions to get you to give an example morality that comes from an objective GOD.

We can understand that the earth has a shape but where is the evidence for GOD having a form, and being an objective truth?

Obviously you believe this to be so, so are you saying here that no human plays any role in the current actual truth about the source of morality and that this is established truth, having nothing to do us thinking about it?
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Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #224

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to William in post #223]


Yes, The problem seems to be theism or religion trying to wangle what doesn't work to look like it does.

Specifically. A moral law supposedly handed down by a god (name your own) is Objective. Which is arguable; that is just the god's opinion.

We don't even get to the snivelling religious excuse that God's law doesn't have to be the same and human Law, in which case Objective is whatever god wants and human laws aren't objective anyway.

It is all faithbased of course, with the idea that whatever God, or the religion or in fact the chur.chgroup the poster belongs to is Objective morality and everything else is just wrong, like wieners without buns.

In fact, that is a good basis for the point. Is Wieners without buns wring because Hank says so (1) , or is it wrong intrinsically, whether Hank says so or not?
Shall we watch it again? O:) Yeah...Like Schubert's heavenly Lengths, you can never repeat it too often.

And a different version. Pretty good, though the visualised reading of the List spun it out too long.



If it is intrinsically wrong, humans can work it out for themselves and a god is not needed - other than to guide us so we twig morality faster.

But there is where the Bible collapses, because it is human morality that has pushed on and religion has been fighting it as wrong and even evil ever since, and you may look at maga's reactionary laws campaign program while you're at it.

It is high time the West and the world admitted that God or not, sercularist society, law and morals is better than religious.

(1) The apologetic that it is objectively right (and Good) because that is Hank's nature, is a mere theological faithclaim without a scrap of validity or verification. Jesus, the more you dig into theist -think, the more delusionbary it is.

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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #225

Post by William »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #224]

I see it a bit differently.

Christianity has a long history with politics, and those things have rubbed off on folk.

Things have been Under The Hammer in that regard, and still are , even that Christianity has changed dramatically through the ages of the English Kings/Queens.

Knocking on peps doors is just a reaction to the historical wrongdoing by trying to inform folk that it wasn't GOD's fault what Christians did (the horrendous things which are now unlawful, also due in part to Christian influence.

The problem is that the evil is so bad that in order to change it, one must infiltrate it and do so from within it.

If one is to cut off and criticise Christianity for such sins, one had best to the same for that which Christianity infiltrated, namely - the politics, because - as the video points out, people aren't sold on religion anymore, but they sure are sold on the promises of Politicians.

Such double standard is the sin of hypocrisy, and one can be thankful there has never been a crime made of that thing - in the sense that one's head isn't placed upon the block, et al.

We are left with self-governing, dealing with what is as best our moral standards allow, don't credit GOD with our moral standards (in case we get that wrong - lord knows history reveals what happens when we do that wrong) best just sort our stuff and cease with the arguing "who's right and who's wrong"...


LSSGPT. Your perspective highlights a deep intertwining of Christianity with political power, especially through history, and the lingering effects of this connection. The idea that Christianity has both influenced and been influenced by politics makes it difficult to fully separate the two when examining moral failings or systemic wrongdoing. Historically, many of the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity were more about consolidating political power than about genuine religious doctrine. Over time, Christian influence also contributed to the very laws and moral standards that now condemn those same actions.

You're pointing out that it's easy to blame Christianity for past wrongs, but if one is going to critique religion for its role in those misdeeds, they must also be willing to critique the political systems that Christianity often infiltrated or collaborated with. This makes sense when you consider that many actions attributed to religious zealotry were, in fact, politically motivated or, at the very least, sanctioned by the state.

Your thoughts about hypocrisy highlight a common struggle—how often people pick and choose where to place blame without applying the same scrutiny to other institutions, like politics, which still wield massive influence over people's lives. You bring up a valid concern about how moral standards shift and how historically, even when people believed they were acting according to "GOD's will," they often got it disastrously wrong. It serves as a reminder that our moral systems need continuous self-examination and that attributing them directly to divine will can lead to dangerous consequences if we misinterpret or misapply them.

In your view, focusing on self-governance and improving our moral standards without resorting to endless debates about who is right or wrong offers a more constructive path forward. It's a call to drop the old habit of blaming either side—religion or politics—for all wrongs, and instead focus on pragmatic solutions that serve the common good.
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An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
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Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)

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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #226

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:17 pmTruthfulness is important.

I am simply trying to ascertain what you mean when you argue for what you claim/believe as "objective morality" or that "Jesus was a moral objectivist" or that morality comes from an objective GOD.
And it seems to me that you are misunderstanding me, so I'm trying to correct those misunderstandings and redirect you to what I actually mean.
William wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:17 pmIt is not as if I haven't attempted on numerous occasions to get you to give an example morality that comes from an objective GOD.

We can understand that the earth has a shape but where is the evidence for GOD having a form, and being an objective truth?
It could be any example. God thinks it is wrong to beat up someone for being homosexual. How is that wrong? Because humans were designed with a nature that can be damaged and a purpose to treat other humans as valuable images of God that should not be damaged. God was responsible for that being the case and, therefore, grounds objective morality.

But, again, this part of the discussion is about what would follow if theism (or naturalism) is true, not (1) if theism or naturalism is actually true or (2) which specific moral actions are good and evil.
William wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:17 pmObviously you believe this to be so, so are you saying here that no human plays any role in the current actual truth about the source of morality and that this is established truth, having nothing to do us thinking about it?
I am saying that no human plays any role in the current actual truth about the source of morality. It’s not clear to me what you mean by “established truth,” so I can’t answer that one.

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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #227

Post by The Tanager »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:08 amSpecifically. A moral law supposedly handed down by a god (name your own) is Objective. Which is arguable; that is just the god's opinion.
It’s not about it being God’s opinion as opposed to our opinion. It’s about God making us with a certain nature and purpose from which it logically follows that X is good and Y is bad. This is why Euthyphro’s dilemma (or Hank’s dilemma as you tell it) fails; it doesn’t grasp the actual theistic view. Because of that lack of understanding, it looks like a mere “faithclaim,” when it is not.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:08 amIf it is intrinsically wrong, humans can work it out for themselves and a god is not needed - other than to guide us so we twig morality faster.
This confuses ontology (what something is) with epistemology (how we know something). Yes, if humans know the truths about something, then they can work it out rationally what is wrong without mention of God in that sense. But, what the moral choice actually is depends on God as making us in such a way, with such a purpose.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:08 amBut there is where the Bible collapses, because it is human morality that has pushed on and religion has been fighting it as wrong and even evil ever since, and you may look at maga's reactionary laws campaign program while you're at it.

It is high time the West and the world admitted that God or not, sercularist society, law and morals is better than religious.
We obviously don’t want just a repeat of one of our previous discussions, but you have never offered anything that can logically get us to one action being better than another if theism is not true. You have no way to ground "better" being the case.

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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #228

Post by bluegreenearth »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:00 pm We obviously don’t want just a repeat of one of our previous discussions, but you have never offered anything that can logically get us to one action being better than another if theism is not true. You have no way to ground "better" being the case.
How does theism logically get us to one action being better than another? "Better" relative to what?

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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #229

Post by The Tanager »

bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:44 pmHow does theism logically get us to one action being better than another? "Better" relative to what?
A mix of objective nature (so that certain things damage and benefit us) and objective purpose (we are meant to be healthy or we are meant for pleasure or whatever) can give us objective truths about how we should treat each other which leads to X being better than Y at accomplishing that.

God can create humanity with both an objective nature and an objective purpose, which includes benefitting others. If both of those are true, then logically we can get to 'not beating up another person for selfish reasons' is better than 'beating up another person for selfish reasons'.

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Re: Cultural Christians.

Post #230

Post by bluegreenearth »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:04 pm
bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:44 pmHow does theism logically get us to one action being better than another? "Better" relative to what?
A mix of objective nature (so that certain things damage and benefit us) and objective purpose (we are meant to be healthy or we are meant for pleasure or whatever) can give us objective truths about how we should treat each other which leads to X being better than Y at accomplishing that.

God can create humanity with both an objective nature and an objective purpose, which includes benefitting others. If both of those are true, then logically we can get to 'not beating up another person for selfish reasons' is better than 'beating up another person for selfish reasons'.
If the god happens to not exist in reality, is the mistaken belief in the god sufficient to logically justify the claim that one action is better than another? I'm trying to understand if you are arguing that objectivity is grounded in the god or grounded in theism.

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