Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

...Jesus didn't add anything? Took away more like. Sabbath doesn't matter. Clean food laws don't matter. ...

Where Jesus says Shabbat doesn't matter?

Where Jesus says laws don't matter?

Jesus said:

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter{literally, iota} or one tiny pen stroke{or, serif} shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 5:17-19

Not least with your excuse of Bible slavery on the putrid grounds that paying our dues to society is somehow slavery. Dude, this a beef i have with Christianity - it tries (like Trump the chump remarkably) to make the life that is so much easier than evolution gave us look like a dogs' dinner so they (and he) can peddle the lies and false promises that get nothing but power to the cult.

At least we seem to be on the same page about religions, as a man - made creation to get power, money and authority. But the point with governments is historically, we need society to give us the paradisical life that you and the theists seem unable to understand, let alone appreciate, because they are misusing complaints (legitimate maybe) in the wrong way, to destroy what society we have in hopes to replace it (uncannily like what Trump plans to do) with with another that at least would claim to be Christian.

Probably the ancient slave owners said the same. We need to slavery (taxes) to support the parasitical life of the government.

If Hinduism was true, wouldn't you want to be a Hindu?

No. I don't see any good reason to want to be a Hindu. And by what I have understood, in Hindu point of view, any path is correct, even being a Christian.

You have denied that the Bible says the daylight was made before the sun was. True, you tried to make it mean something else, but it is still denial of what it plainly says.

Bible doesn't' have the word "daylight". It says light was made before sun, and I don't deny it.

You denied that the Bible endorses chattel slavery for foreign slaves. True, you tried to make it mean something else, but it is still denial.

Please tell where I have denied that? I have said Bible gives right to have slaves. But, because of all the rules in the Bible, I think it would be impossible to keep someone as a slave against their will. It seems to me that you deny all the other rules and accept only the ones that fits your agenda.

You denied that the resurrection - accounts contradict, first with the 'marys split up' apologetic, and when that failed, chopping up and reassembling the text to make it work, which it didn't anyway.

You have not shown any real contradiction in the Bible. You have only your contradictory interpretation of it and insist that everyone must be irrational and accept it. I don't see any good reason to do so.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Jesus didn't add anything? Took away more like. Sabbath doesn't matter. Clean food laws don't matter. ...

Where Jesus says Shabbat doesn't matter?

Where Jesus says laws don't matter?

Jesus said:

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter{literally, iota} or one tiny pen stroke{or, serif} shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 5:17-19

Not least with your excuse of Bible slavery on the putrid grounds that paying our dues to society is somehow slavery. Dude, this a beef i have with Christianity - it tries (like Trump the chump remarkably) to make the life that is so much easier than evolution gave us look like a dogs' dinner so they (and he) can peddle the lies and false promises that get nothing but power to the cult.

At least we seem to be on the same page about religions, as a man - made creation to get power, money and authority. But the point with governments is historically, we need society to give us the paradisical life that you and the theists seem unable to understand, let alone appreciate, because they are misusing complaints (legitimate maybe) in the wrong way, to destroy what society we have in hopes to replace it (uncannily like what Trump plans to do) with with another that at least would claim to be Christian.

Probably the ancient slave owners said the same. We need to slavery (taxes) to support the parasitical life of the government.

If Hinduism was true, wouldn't you want to be a Hindu?

No. I don't see any good reason to want to be a Hindu. And by what I have understood, in Hindu point of view, any path is correct, even being a Christian.

You have denied that the Bible says the daylight was made before the sun was. True, you tried to make it mean something else, but it is still denial of what it plainly says.

Bible doesn't' have the word "daylight". It says light was made before sun, and I don't deny it.

You denied that the Bible endorses chattel slavery for foreign slaves. True, you tried to make it mean something else, but it is still denial.

Please tell where I have denied that? I have said Bible gives right to have slaves. But, because of all the rules in the Bible, I think it would be impossible to keep someone as a slave against their will. It seems to me that you deny all the other rules and accept only the ones that fits your agenda.

You denied that the resurrection - accounts contradict, first with the 'marys split up' apologetic, and when that failed, chopping up and reassembling the text to make it work, which it didn't anyway.

You have not shown any real contradiction in the Bible. You have only your contradictory interpretation of it and insist that everyone must be irrational and accept it. I don't see any good reason to do so.

Ignorance or denial or problems with comprehension or evasion? You tell me. Jesus breaks Shabbat repeatedly, and David and the Shewbread is written expressly to argue that the sabbath doesn't matter. And the Jewish (religious) laws - let's not fiddle meaning, ritual cleanliness is rubbished with 'what comes out of a mouth defiles, not what goes in' and Mark makes it clear by saying 'Thus he declared all foods clean'.

That contentious passage about jot and tittle is written differently in Luke and really suggests that it cannot pass away - until Jesus does it. But I excuse you here as not even atheist Bible - critics seem to understand that one.

Your take on slavery is the best argument yet for NEVER allowing Christian law to obtain in the West (nor Islamic while we are at it). Though in fact you are being evasive and tricky. I am sure you are aware of the difference between paying your dues to the society that supports you and being owned as property by some other individual.

I am sure you tried to pull the usual "It was indentured servitude, not chattel slavery" excuse, but ok, you now seem to be arguing that slavery is actually ok because we pay taxes.
Your attempt at an argument that slaves cannot be kept against their will is so palpably false as hardly worth further comment. Other than it is probably the weakest and most miserable excuse I have yet heard, and there is a good deal of competition, and not just from you.

Your unthinking dismissal of Hinduism or any other religion is faithbased dismissal under the 'Which god?' package to which the Christian response (when there has been one) has been 'There is only one God' (implication - the one I believe in). This is quite simply the faithbased a priori god - belief that invalidates all Christian apologetics; sell your Troth Sential shares and invest in that.

Bible has the words 'day and night; morning and evening'. You have even formerly argued for a light - source in the position of the sun (before it was made) for no reason other than to make the daylight exist before (the Bible says) the sun was made. And that when you tried to make the cosmic background radiation (for the whole universe) be the Light before the sun. This is on a par with you at least recognising that the circle of the earth is flat (compass - scribed - Hebrew 'chwug') and tried to make that a circle drawn on a round earth vaguely (as i recall) covering the area from Cush to Mesopotamia.

Thing is it doesn't matter what far - fetched excuses you make up, they are only for you to delude yourself, they are not - if I expose them - going to fool anyone else, and at least Christians with the ability to think, still will have to admit that Some bits of the Bible have to be taken with a handful of salt.

You won't fool anyone with your denial; you had to dissect and rearrange the resurrection - accounts to try to get oiver the contradictions, and it didn't work as I was able to show. And they are not the only ones. The nativities being the test case. Of course we can all understand that your denial and rewriting what the Bible says (what you call 'Interpretation') is just to convince yourself that there are no contradictions that can't be explained, but the point is that your denial counts for nothing; that you are the best worst example of what's wrong with faithbased, Bible - fiddling, denialist Christian apologetics, is the point, and you are doing a sterling job for atheism.

[1213]

.... Jesus breaks Shabbat repeatedly, and David and the Shewbread is written expressly to argue that the sabbath doesn't matter. And the Jewish (religious) laws - let's not fiddle meaning, ritual cleanliness is rubbished with 'what comes out of a mouth defiles, not what goes in' and Mark makes it clear by saying 'Thus he declared all foods clean'.

Jesus didn't brake Shabbat.

I don't know what scripture you are speaking of, but why could Jesus not declare some food clean?

I am sure you are aware of the difference between paying your dues to the society that supports you and being owned as property by some other individual.

You speak like a slave owner. They also could have said we take care of the slaves, so naturally they must work for it.

I don't think society, or government, supports anyone.

I am sure you tried to pull the usual "It was indentured servitude, not chattel slavery" excuse, but ok, you now seem to be arguing that slavery is actually ok because we pay taxes.

I think slavery and paying taxes is ok, if it is voluntary.

Your attempt at an argument that slaves cannot be kept against their will is so palpably false ...

How could one be forced to be a slave, if kidnapping is wrong and people should love others as themselves?

Bible has the words 'day and night; morning and evening'. You have even formerly argued for a light - source in the position of the sun (before it was made) for no reason other than to make the daylight exist before (the Bible says) the sun was made. And that when you tried to make the cosmic background radiation (for the whole universe) be the Light before the sun. This is on a par with you at least recognising that the circle of the earth is flat (compass - scribed - Hebrew 'chwug') and tried to make that a circle drawn on a round earth vaguely (as i recall) covering the area from Cush to Mesopotamia.

It seems to me that you don't even read what I write, just make up stuff. Apparently you think you lost honest debate long time ago and now have to make straw-man arguments to stay relevant.

Bible tells God created light before the sun. I believe it is true and I am not saying it is not true.

And obviously circle can be drawn to any surface. And I believe the circle was drawn approximately where the ring of fire is located.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Fire

You won't fool anyone with your denial; you had to dissect and rearrange the resurrection - accounts to try to get oiver the contradictions....

What do you mean with rearranging?

[TRANSPONDER]

.... Jesus breaks Shabbat repeatedly, and David and the Shewbread is written expressly to argue that the sabbath doesn't matter. And the Jewish (religious) laws - let's not fiddle meaning, ritual cleanliness is rubbished with 'what comes out of a mouth defiles, not what goes in' and Mark makes it clear by saying 'Thus he declared all foods clean'.

Jesus didn't brake Shabbat.

I don't know what scripture you are speaking of, but why could Jesus not declare some food clean?

I am sure you are aware of the difference between paying your dues to the society that supports you and being owned as property by some other individual.

You speak like a slave owner. They also could have said we take care of the slaves, so naturally they must work for it.

I don't think society, or government, supports anyone.

I am sure you tried to pull the usual "It was indentured servitude, not chattel slavery" excuse, but ok, you now seem to be arguing that slavery is actually ok because we pay taxes.

I think slavery and paying taxes is ok, if it is voluntary.

Your attempt at an argument that slaves cannot be kept against their will is so palpably false ...

How could one be forced to be a slave, if kidnapping is wrong and people should love others as themselves?

Bible has the words 'day and night; morning and evening'. You have even formerly argued for a light - source in the position of the sun (before it was made) for no reason other than to make the daylight exist before (the Bible says) the sun was made. And that when you tried to make the cosmic background radiation (for the whole universe) be the Light before the sun. This is on a par with you at least recognising that the circle of the earth is flat (compass - scribed - Hebrew 'chwug') and tried to make that a circle drawn on a round earth vaguely (as i recall) covering the area from Cush to Mesopotamia.

It seems to me that you don't even read what I write, just make up stuff. Apparently you think you lost honest debate long time ago and now have to make straw-man arguments to stay relevant.

Bible tells God created light before the sun. I believe it is true and I am not saying it is not true.

And obviously circle can be drawn to any surface. And I believe the circle was drawn approximately where the ring of fire is located.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Fire

You won't fool anyone with your denial; you had to dissect and rearrange the resurrection - accounts to try to get oiver the contradictions....

What do you mean with rearranging?

Jesus braked the Shabbes every time he healed someone on the saturday, and explained why it didn't matter in the david and shewvbread passage. Ignorance or denial on your part? You tell me.

Jesus should not declare some food clean if the Mosaic law (supposedly given by God) sdays it wasn't, and in Judaism still is not.

And ignorance or denial (I suspect the latter) of the difference between playing our part in a society that makes it pretty easy to survive and being owned as an item of property. never mind accusing me of speaking like a slave owner, when I have been calling iit out all along. What a dirty piece of mud - slinging on your part. I would rather die than be your sort of Christian apologist.

What more rubbish you got? Slavery - chattel slavery, being voluntary is arguable, but in the Slave states and when Iisraelites bought themselves slaves fo rm other countries, it was not volutary. The Bible itself shows that it was not good when it happened to the Israelites, so stop trying to excuse it.

Ande finally, I read what you write and remember it better than you. I just said the other day the Light was day and night - it says so. How could it be before the sun was made? You forgot that you had to argue an imitation sun that the earth had to rotate around but bewfore the actual sun was made? Just to deny that the Bible made a mistake. And the ring fire (around the pacific isn't it?) is just you picking up 'ring' in relation to geography and not caring whether it is relevant or not. The cirle is not On the earth (and should be Eden from Cush to the Tigris) but of the earth; it is the earth, the whole known earth and whatever you believe, which doesn't matter, I say it means a Babylonian circular flat earth with a sky dome over it with sun and moon made later just to provide decoration fr the pre -exiting mornings and evenings.

And I read and remember what you posted, better than you do - or pretend to. You don't recall that after I demolished your 'Marys split up' argument, you tried to rearrange the text to shift the women running into Jesus before they report to the disciples to After they report to the disciples to try to link it up with Jesus appearing to marty in John.

That of course requires you to lift it from before the women report to the disciples to after they do so, which is the rearranging the text to suit yourself. I say again, not only do I read and remember what you post but I i understand it better than you and show more respect for bibletext than you do, since i take it for what it says, but you fiddle it and even deny what's in it to support whatever you want to claim./ As sure as Trump's campaign is about Himself, b not about the people, your apologetics about your own Rightness, not about the Bible, Jesus or Christianity. It is ...I may say before I get my ass banned all about your ego.

[1213]

Jesus braked the Shabbes every time he healed someone on the saturday, and explained why it didn't matter in the david and shewvbread passage. Ignorance or denial on your part? You tell me.

Does the Shabbat command say that you can't do anything good at that day? Or does it say: "...Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. You shall labor six days, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God. You shall not do any work in it"...?

If the work of Jesus was to heal people, then it might be violation of that Commandment to heal someone. But, is there some reason to say it was his work? And if it was his work, who was paying his wage for that?

How would you explain that guards and priests did their job on Shabbat day, and were not killed, but Jesus was, because he healed a sick person? I think one must have very twisted mind to accuse Jesus of wrongdoing, when he does something good, that no other would do.

this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the continual burnt-offering, and the drink-offering of it.
Num. 28:10
He commanded them, saying, This is the thing that you shall do: a third part of you, who come in on the Sabbath, shall be keep-ers of the watch of the king's house;… …The captains over hun-dreds did according to all that Jehoiada the priest commanded; and they took every man his men, those who were to come in on the Sabbath, with those who were to go out on the Sabbath, and came to Jehoiada the priest.
2 Kings 11:5, 9

The Shabbat commandment doesn't really say that you can't do anything that day. If it would be so, you couldn't even breath that day, because it can also be counted as work.

Jesus should not declare some food clean if the Mosaic law (supposedly given by God) sdays it wasn't, and in Judaism still is not.

That seems to be only your opinion. I don't see any reason why it would be so.

... The Bible itself shows that it was not good when it happened to the Israelites, so stop trying to excuse it.

I think that is a good point. Bible shows that forced slavery is not good. Bible tells also that Jews should not sell their people. That obviously would be bad. But, if other nations are evil and sell their people, I don't see why deny buying them, because it would be like saving them from tyrannical nation.

Ande finally, I read what you write and remember it better than you. I just said the other day the Light was day and night - it says so. How could it be before the sun was made? You forgot that you had to argue an imitation sun that the earth had to rotate around but bewfore the actual sun was made?

You don't understand that other lights than sun can exist? And to have day and night doesn't necessary require that earth rotates. It is possible that the light moved so that it caused day and night.

...(and should be Eden from Cush to the Tigris) but of the earth; it is the earth, the whole known earth and whatever you believe, which doesn't matter, I say it means a Babylonian circular flat earth with a sky dome over it with sun and moon made later just to provide decoration fr the pre -exiting mornings and evenings.

I think the Babylonian model is a very poor understanding of what is said in the Bible. And the idea that the circle is where the ring of fire is, fits very well to the Biblical descriptions, if you understand them correctly. But, maybe it is better, if people don't understand it, because it would reveal secrets that may be better be kept as secrets.

I demolished your 'Marys split up' argument...

[TRANSPONDER]

Ah You have put your finger on it 'Doing good on Shabbat is ok; No. God does not tell that to Moses. You do no work, good, bad or indifferent. Now, take Jesus healing on the sabbath. Take Mark on the man with the withered hand in the synagogue Jesus asks whether it is ok to do good on the Sabbath, to save life or to heal.

This is what Jewish teachers of the law have discused and it might have been a discussion here. As i understand it, it is ok to heal to save life. The healing could be done the next day. So maybe the man or Jesus won;t be there, but the problem is not life -saving, is a healing good enough to justify sabbath - breaking? As I understand it, it is not, because that is God's law. If you say 'but the morality our tweighs the letter of the law' then one is use ing human ethics to dismiss God's commands.

But the point is, there is no discussion. Jesus makes the point and goes ahead and heals, and it is assumed that the point (doing Good on the sabbath) is valid without discussion. Read it and you see it is is all set up to make an argumen, and in fact I say and will insist it is a story that really could not have happened, but is made up by Christian writers to show that the Jewish laws sould be ignored, just as paul said.

David and the Shewbread is even worse, with a totally engineered scenario and a terrible bad argument that the teachers of the law should have contested. But the writers act like Jesus totally won that point. This is Christian propaganda, not a record of what Jesus actually said and did. Darnnit, the Palsied man is just such a story, but in Jerusalem in John but in Galilee in the synoptic version.

Mghawure Ghaightrwer as i post to my old pal online but I have to go out now....but as a preliminary Ring of fire.

The Ring of Fire is not a single geological structure. It was created by the subduction of different tectonic plates at convergent boundaries around the Pacific Ocean. These include: the Antarctic, Nazca and Cocos plates subducting beneath the South American Plate; the Pacific and Juan de Fuca plates beneath the North American Plate; it says on the Internet.

This is hardly anything to do with the account of creation. And God's interaction with the circle of the earth in which he watches humans run about like ants. You just saw 'Ring' and thought that was close enough to circle so claim that's it and wangle a flat (scribed) circle 'of the earth' on;t a globe you would rather not not deny or you'd be laughed at,

......

Ok, I'm back...and your excuse about owning slaves sounds like the excuse Slaveowners made - we saved them from a wretched life in Africa and taught them Christianity. Disgraceful Disgusting.

This is very good reasons why we should have nothing to do with the Bible, Christianity, when it brushes away human ethics and excuses for slavery.

Still making up excuses for Genesis being wrong? No reason to credit any of your excuses made up as you go along first trying to pass of the cosmic radio echo of the big bang as light, and when i pointed out to you that the Bible says day and night, just as if the sun was there, you invent all sorts of fake sun effects to imitate the sun which the Bible says wasn't made yet.

Not even creationists believe that - they argue the sun was there but covered by cloud, or perhaps an ice shell.

None of these excuses have any basis other than Genesis - literalism; insistence that Genesis is correct. Not even all Christians believe that so why should I? Why should anyone credit any of your excuses pulled out of thin air? Why should not people just say 'So Genesis is just wrong. What a relief I don't have to excuse it any more'. The funny thing is that your excuses and inventions are futile. You are never going to persuade any rational person that your out of a hat inventions are serious explanations of a simple bronze age cosmology error - the earth was not made before all the stars and planets and moons, no more than grass before any critters nor birds before fish. Not even Believers will swallow your attempts at deny a thing in the Bible that is wrong.
It is, I believe, about your faith - preserving denial of reason and evidence, not about making a serious case.

And it's great because if nobody can get anything but a chuckle from your excuses for Genesis being wrong, why should they believe you on the resurrection stories? I at least take the text for what it says, not for what I would prefer.

Since we are on the NT - sure I have an Interpretation, but it fits the text better than the Christian claim; Jesus came alive and walked. It takes - concedo - a bit of thought to realise that Mark did not lose the end of the story - the women running away is a perfectly good end, John makes it clear that the angel telling us what conclusion we are supposed to reach is an invention. Like the discrepant stories of a body walking still with the marks of the car - crash for heavens' sakes as if Jesus didn't sport his war - wounds it would look like it wasn't him.,

We can see the story - writers getting around the problem. Such as Matthew inventing a tomb guard to get over the only too likely explanation the Jews of his days told - the disciples took the body. Nobody else has heard of this tomb guard, just as they haven't heard of the raising of Lazarus or of the ascension, it seems. It does not wash that didn't think it important. These stories are significant and it is mere denial to pretend they didn't matter much. Excuses aside, the evidence of the text - once understood....it is a continuing puzzle to me that even Bible - critics don't seem to understand it..., that even if Jesus was real, the gospel stories about him are in many cases, not.

[1213]

Ah You have put your finger on it 'Doing good on Shabbat is ok; No. God does not tell that to Moses. You do no work, good, bad or indifferent...

Yeah, I think we all agree that no work. The problem is in, what is defined as work. Doing good to others is not a work. Or what do you think, should the priests and guards be killed for "working" on Shabbat day?

The Ring of Fire is not a single geological structure. It was created by the subduction of different tectonic plates at convergent boundaries around the Pacific Ocean. These include: the Antarctic, Nazca and Cocos plates subducting beneath the South American Plate; the Pacific and Juan de Fuca plates beneath the North American Plate; it says on the Internet.

This is hardly anything to do with the account of creation. And God's interaction with the circle of the earth in which he watches humans run about like ants. You just saw 'Ring' and thought that was close enough to circle so claim that's it and wangle a flat (scribed) circle 'of the earth' on;t a globe you would rather not not deny or you'd be laughed at,

Th current ring of fire is not exactly the same. In the beginning it was little different and it got deformed when the great flood happened. But the location is approximately the same.

...the earth was not made before all the stars and planets and moons...

Do you expect people to believe your baseless claims?

[TRANSPONDER]

Ah You have put your finger on it 'Doing good on Shabbat is ok; No. God does not tell that to Moses. You do no work, good, bad or indifferent...

Yeah, I think we all agree that no work. The problem is in, what is defined as work. Doing good to others is not a work. Or what do you think, should the priests and guards be killed for "working" on Shabbat day?

The Ring of Fire is not a single geological structure. It was created by the subduction of different tectonic plates at convergent boundaries around the Pacific Ocean. These include: the Antarctic, Nazca and Cocos plates subducting beneath the South American Plate; the Pacific and Juan de Fuca plates beneath the North American Plate; it says on the Internet.

This is hardly anything to do with the account of creation. And God's interaction with the circle of the earth in which he watches humans run about like ants. You just saw 'Ring' and thought that was close enough to circle so claim that's it and wangle a flat (scribed) circle 'of the earth' on;t a globe you would rather not not deny or you'd be laughed at,

Th current ring of fire is not exactly the same. In the beginning it was little different and it got deformed when the great flood happened. But the location is approximately the same.

...the earth was not made before all the stars and planets and moons...

Do you expect people to believe your baseless claims?

Work is work, whether doing good or not. Not in Jewish law. My point is that Jewish rabbis debate where the line is drawn - what is permissible (e.g to save life) and what is not. But in the gospels, there is no discussion. The whole thing is assumed to be 'Old Law out' from the start. That is just one more clue that this is Greek, Paulinist, Christian propaganda, not eyewitness record.

I'll look into the ring of fire, but I suspect it isn't even a ring in geologic age old times It is because it is relatively new that it is active geology,. But presumably you will dismiss mere science.



yeah...I don't see a convincing Circle of the earth there. Just breakup and reforming of land masses s through tectonic action over millions of years.

Incidental notices and announcement. I want to thank all you gals and guys or whatevers, for getting me to 3900 likes; it's the only reason I'm here, If I get 5,000, I get an airmiles onboard suite or a Trump watch.

Also consider the voting is now on - last year, noboody seemed to notice and hardly anyone voted, It's fun and you - wall can express your appreciation for any poster that you particularly like and you can ignore the ones you hate It'll keep you busy until Formula 1 starts again.

[POI]

Below is the list of options. Here is the running tally so far. Looks like option D) is starting to trend as THE answer.

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
Post 916: 1213 answer B)
Post 920: Capbook answer D)
post 938: armchairscholar D)

[POI]

C'mon Christians! What IS THE answer here? How exactly does one earn a ticket to Heaven? I would reckon that if God exists, and if God is good, and if God cares about his followers, that God will assure that his word(s) would not be so easily confused. And yet, this does not look to be the case. Why? The Christian answer is not unified/unanimous/universal. We have many denominations, for which many step all over each other. This means his word(s) are not clear. You cannot blame yourselves, as God knows all. He already knows humans are in error. If some of you are mistaken, despite your earnest efforts to understand THE answer, God would then logically realize his words are not clear enough. And yet, God makes no effort to clarify. Does this mean God offers grace anyways to the ones who try in earnest, but botch his message completely?

The stakes are high. Many are said to be doomed to "eternal torment". Some/many of you fine folks are living by an incorrect creed. Some of you clearly think that belief is not absolutely required. And hence, will tell skeptics that they may still go to Heaven by some other means. Some will instead say the opposite. That belief/faith IS required. Some of you, by this facete alone, are logically proselytizing the incorrect "Word." Is belief/faith an absolute requirement, or not?

The sooner you fine folks can admit that the stated all-powerful, and all-knowing, and all-loving God has purposefully ordained a book, which is not clear, the sooner you Christians can start asking yourselves.... Why the heck is the God we worship not clearer? We know God has the ability to be clearer when he wants to be. So why be more elusive here, where the stakes are the highest?

Case/point, is murder, theft, and blasphemy a sin? The answer is YES! I'm not a believer and even I can answer, simply by reading the Bible. I can ask as many believers as I like, and all your answers would all to be swift, concise, consistent, and unanimous. It would be an astounding YES to this question.