Could we have made different choices than the ones we actually made?

[Compassionist]

Could we have made different choices than the ones we actually made? By "we" I mean all living things. For example, I have a potted plant that has tilted westward by twenty degrees. Could the plant have refrained from tilting or tilted at a different direction by a different degree or was it inevitable that it tilted westward by twenty degrees? I ate porridge for breakfast today. Could I have eaten something else or was eating porridge for breakfast inevitable? Nelson Mandela died on 14 June 1999. Was his death on that date inevitable or could he have died at a younger or older age? Albert Einstein was a physicist. Could he have been a professional football player instead of a physicist or was his choice of career inevitable? In your response, please explain how you know what you know.

[Miles]

Could we have made different choices than the ones we actually made?

Nope.

In fact, no one chooses anything. All is determined.

In your response, please explain how you know what you know.

I "know" because the alternative, free will, has never been shown to exist, whereas determinism has, and for everything that exists---with the possible exception of some quantum decay events. It's the reason "cause" resides in the word "because." Cause is what runs the world.

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[Compassionist]

Could we have made different choices than the ones we actually made?

Nope.

In fact, no one chooses anything. All is determined.

In your response, please explain how you know what you know.

I "know" because the alternative, free will, has never been shown to exist, whereas determinism has, and for everything that exists---with the possible exception of some quantum decay events. It's the reason "cause" resides in the word "because." Cause is what runs the world.

.

Thank you for your reply. Why do we reward or punish people and other organisms if they could not have acted differently? e.g. sending people to jail for stealing, giving people medals for bravery, giving dogs treats for doing tricks, putting dogs down for killing babies, etc.

[Miles]

Could we have made different choices than the ones we actually made?

Nope.

In fact, no one chooses anything. All is determined.

In your response, please explain how you know what you know.

I "know" because the alternative, free will, has never been shown to exist, whereas determinism has, and for everything that exists---with the possible exception of some quantum decay events. It's the reason "cause" resides in the word "because." Cause is what runs the world.

.

Thank you for your reply. Why do we reward or punish people and other organisms if they could not have acted differently? e.g. sending people to jail for stealing, giving people medals for bravery, giving dogs treats for doing tricks, putting dogs down for killing babies, etc.

Because very few people believe we live in a deterministic world, but believe they have free will and can freely choose between A and B.


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[Compassionist]

Could we have made different choices than the ones we actually made?

Nope.

In fact, no one chooses anything. All is determined.

In your response, please explain how you know what you know.

I "know" because the alternative, free will, has never been shown to exist, whereas determinism has, and for everything that exists---with the possible exception of some quantum decay events. It's the reason "cause" resides in the word "because." Cause is what runs the world.

.

Thank you for your reply. Why do we reward or punish people and other organisms if they could not have acted differently? e.g. sending people to jail for stealing, giving people medals for bravery, giving dogs treats for doing tricks, putting dogs down for killing babies, etc.

Because very few people believe we live in a deterministic world, but believe they have free will and can freely choose between A and B.


.

Why do so many people believe in free will when a free will has never been shown to exist? How and when was determinism shown to exist?

There is another reason for rewarding and punishing organisms. If organisms know that their behaviour will be rewarded or punished, they are more likely to do the rewarded actions and refrain from doing the punished actions.

[Miles]

Could we have made different choices than the ones we actually made?

Nope.

In fact, no one chooses anything. All is determined.

In your response, please explain how you know what you know.

I "know" because the alternative, free will, has never been shown to exist, whereas determinism has, and for everything that exists---with the possible exception of some quantum decay events. It's the reason "cause" resides in the word "because." Cause is what runs the world.

.

Thank you for your reply. Why do we reward or punish people and other organisms if they could not have acted differently? e.g. sending people to jail for stealing, giving people medals for bravery, giving dogs treats for doing tricks, putting dogs down for killing babies, etc.

Because very few people believe we live in a deterministic world, but believe they have free will and can freely choose between A and B.


.

Why do so many people believe in free will when a free will has never been shown to exist? How and when was determinism shown to exist?

Because the idea of free will gives them the sense that they are in charge of their destiny. AND, it gives sin and salvation meaning. Without free will both die on the vine as senseless concepts. Gotta believe in free will in order to make Christianity work.

There is another reason for rewarding and punishing organisms. If organisms know that their behaviour will be rewarded or punished, they are more likely to do the rewarded actions and refrain from doing the punished actions.

But keep in mind that such obedience to doing the "right thing," no matter how beneficial to the organism, is not necessarily right in the moral sense of the word. Obeying Hitler's orders to exterminate Jews and gypsies may be the right thing to do in order to keep oneself alive, but hardly the moral thing to do.

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[Dimmesdale]

Thank you for your reply. Why do we reward or punish people and other organisms if they could not have acted differently? e.g. sending people to jail for stealing, giving people medals for bravery, giving dogs treats for doing tricks, putting dogs down for killing babies, etc.

Even if there is no free will, we make choices with a certain attitude. Some attitudes are more obnoxious than others. Therefore, they invite a certain reaction.

It's like having to clean a smoking chimney, and you curse all sorts of things at it. Why? Because the chimney really rubs you the wrong way, not that it could be anything else.

And also, sometimes a certain response establishes something, like authority, and that leads to future behavior modification. Sometimes.

[Tcg]

Even if there is no free will, we make choices with a certain attitude.

If there is no free will, choice is an illusion.


Tcg

[Purple Knight]

Why do we reward or punish people and other organisms if they could not have acted differently? e.g. sending people to jail for stealing, giving people medals for bravery, giving dogs treats for doing tricks, putting dogs down for killing babies, etc.

Because we have no choice, just like the plant, the heroes, the dogs, and the babies.

I don't buy the idea that because there's no free will, and the criminal can't help it, he gets to do whatever he likes without consequences. If so, then I get to do whatever I like without consequences and what I want is to punish him.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

This thread seemed to quickly accept that determinism is true and then moved on to what would follow from that. But I want to get back to the starting point. I saw two reasons offered for this conclusion:

1. We couldnt have made different "choices" because no one has proven we can make different choices

2. We couldnt have made different "choices" because its been proven that we couldnt have made different "choices"

If one believes (1) alone, this would lead to agnosticism, not determinism. And (2) isnt actual support, it just says there is support. Can someone give the actual support for determinism being true?