Do patterns of phylogenesis show evolution?

[Difflugia]

Question for debate: Are the patterns seen in molecular phylogenies sufficient to show that biological evolution occurred?

For reference and easier Googling, the science of generating evolutionary trees is known as cladistics or phylogenetic systematics. Using DNA sequence data to generate the trees is molecular phylogeny.

The standard of evidence I'll be discussing is reasonable doubt. Even that's pretty broad, but if your argument hinges on "possible," you should be able to at least quantify that.

I've generated phylogenies using online tools previously and discussed them in this post. I tried to start a tutorial in this thread. If someone wants to discuss how to actually use the tools and data, feel free to ask questions in the tutorial thread and I'll pick it back up.

This debate question is a response to this comment.

[1213]

All living things on Earth have a common ancestor....

Ok, it is fascinating how people can believe that.

What quality of evidence would you need ...

If evolution would be true, it should be possible to breed a rat into a mini whale. If you manage to do that, I can believe the theory is possible.

[1213]

If we pretend for a minute that evolution has been falsified, what mechanism would you propose that would better explain not only the animals we see on the planet now, but also in the fossil record?

I believe God created all the animals. One reason for that is that I think it is the best explanation.

I ask because there are more than 340,000 species of beetles alone on this planet.

Have you seen them all? Can you show an image of them all?

You find the mechanism of evolution to be fascinating to believe, but a pair of beetles evolving into 340,000 different species over the course of some thousands of years is not fascinating.

At the moment it seems you could as well say there is almost 8 billion different human species, because all humans look little different.

Sorry, I don't believe there is 340,000 different beetle species. Nor that they evolved. All evidence shows that things are degenerating, not evolving. If there are changes, they come from errors in copying dna, which points to that there was at some point a good dna without errors, which indicates that all was created at once and then started to degenerate.

[Difflugia]

If evolution would be true, it should be possible to breed a rat into a mini whale. If you manage to do that, I can believe the theory is possible.

Let's say I've got a breeding pair of rats. Based on your understanding of evolution, how should I construct and conduct the experiment? If I'm allowed to do artificial selection, how might I go about deciding which rats to breed together at each subsequent generation? What's your estimate of the number of generations it should take before I've got a mini whale?

[benchwarmer]

All living things on Earth have a common ancestor....

Ok, it is fascinating how people can believe that.

What quality of evidence would you need ...

If evolution would be true, it should be possible to breed a rat into a mini whale. If you manage to do that, I can believe the theory is possible.

Ahh the good ole crocoduck defense.

I await 1213's answer to Difflugia's question on methodology, but would also like to point out the obvious (at least to those that understand the actual science): It's not possible to breed rats and arrive at a mini whale. HOWEVER, with enough generations and the right selection pressures (natural or artificial) you could end up with rats that resemble small whales. They won't be genetically related to current day whales except through whatever common ancestor current rats and whales have.

[Clownboat]

I believe God created all the animals. One reason for that is that I think it is the best explanation.

That wouldn't explain all the animals we see in fossil record and in reality is just claiming magic happened, which is not a valid mechanism until magic (or whatever you would call it) is shown to be a thing.

I ask because there are more than 340,000 species of beetles alone on this planet.

Have you seen them all? Can you show an image of them all?

Great googly moogly! There are 50 states in the United States. I know this and traveling to them all to view them is not required.

At the moment it seems you could as well say there is almost 8 billion different human species, because all humans look little different.

That would require going to war with language and changing the definition of species to mean looking different. 8 billion species of humans on this planet! You go ahead and make that claim.

Sorry, I don't believe there is 340,000 different beetle species. Nor that they evolved. All evidence shows that things are degenerating, not evolving. If there are changes, they come from errors in copying dna, which points to that there was at some point a good dna without errors, which indicates that all was created at once and then started to degenerate.

Your denial is noted, as is your magic explanation. The readers will determine where they find merit.

[brunumb]

If evolution would be true, it should be possible to breed a rat into a mini whale.

Non sequitur. Why do you always default to absurdist scenarios like this one? It demonstrates to me that you are unable or unwilling to develop any genuine understanding of the principles of evolution and use these trivial responses to rudely dismiss serious arguments from the other side. I think it reflects the paucity of your case against evolution and makes arguing with you a waste of time. Hence I do not.

[1213]

If evolution would be true, it should be possible to breed a rat into a mini whale. If you manage to do that, I can believe the theory is possible.

Let's say I've got a breeding pair of rats. Based on your understanding of evolution, how should I construct and conduct the experiment? If I'm allowed to do artificial selection, how might I go about deciding which rats to breed together at each subsequent generation? What's your estimate of the number of generations it should take before I've got a mini whale?

Obviously it should be done the similar way as it is claimed whales evolved. You start by changing the conditions and selecting those that fit best to the changing conditions. And changing conditions means, you increase the water element so that it favors those that are best fit to the water environment.

I would allow you to pick the ones that are best fit, but not artificial modification of DNA.

And I expect that even in infinite number of generations you would not get a mini whale. (And I don't mean in this case that it should be genetically the same as modern whales, but similar animal in appearance)

[1213]

I believe God created all the animals. One reason for that is that I think it is the best explanation.

That wouldn't explain all the animals we see in fossil record and in reality is just claiming magic happened, which is not a valid mechanism until magic (or whatever you would call it) is shown to be a thing.

I don't think magic is needed, nor used and I don't believe in magic. Why animals are in fossil record is not because they were created, but because at one point they were captured in sediments. And it seems many if not all of those were captured during the great flood event.

[1213]

If evolution would be true, it should be possible to breed a rat into a mini whale.

...Why do you always default to absurdist scenarios like this one? ...

Why do you think it is absurd? And it that is absurd, why you don't think the whole evolution theory is not absurd, when it basically suggests that it should be possible?

[Difflugia]

Obviously it should be done the similar way as it is claimed whales evolved. You start by changing the conditions and selecting those that fit best to the changing conditions. And changing conditions means, you increase the water element so that it favors those that are best fit to the water environment.

Tell me what you think that is. You're telling me that this is a practical experiment to conduct and success would be sufficient for you to accept evolution.

I would allow you to pick the ones that are best fit, but not artificial modification of DNA.

I wasn't suggesting that.

And I expect that even in infinite number of generations you would not get a mini whale. (And I don't mean in this case that it should be genetically the same as modern whales, but similar animal in appearance)

I mean for a successful outcome. Based on your understanding of the theory of evolution, how many generations of rats should I expect to breed before I get the mini-whale?