Do patterns of phylogenesis show evolution?

[Difflugia]

Question for debate: Are the patterns seen in molecular phylogenies sufficient to show that biological evolution occurred?

For reference and easier Googling, the science of generating evolutionary trees is known as cladistics or phylogenetic systematics. Using DNA sequence data to generate the trees is molecular phylogeny.

The standard of evidence I'll be discussing is reasonable doubt. Even that's pretty broad, but if your argument hinges on "possible," you should be able to at least quantify that.

I've generated phylogenies using online tools previously and discussed them in this post. I tried to start a tutorial in this thread. If someone wants to discuss how to actually use the tools and data, feel free to ask questions in the tutorial thread and I'll pick it back up.

This debate question is a response to this comment.

[The Barbarian]

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #430]

So much for a simple yes or no..

Someone once asked "who is my neighbor?"

And He told a story. So much for a simple yes or no.

Yeah, and "Who is my neighbor?" ain't a yes or no question now, is it?

The simple (and inadequate) answer is "everone." Just as "yes" is an inadequate answer to your question.
Equivalency. I notice you didn't answer my question at all.

The Pharisee who asked Jesus that question was trying to trap Him into an answer he wanted from Him. Kind of a early twister of Ordo Amore. Jesus wasn't about to play into that game, and told him a story instead.

Not accusing you, of course. I'm pretty sure your motives were honest.

[SiNcE_1985]

The simple (and inadequate) answer is "everone." Just as "yes" is an inadequate answer to your question.
Equivalency. I notice you didn't answer my question at all.

The Pharisee who asked Jesus that question was trying to trap Him into an answer he wanted from Him. Kind of a early twister of Ordo Amore. Jesus wasn't about to play into that game, and told him a story instead.

Not accusing you, of course. I'm pretty sure your motives were honest.

Not sure where you're going with it, nor where you landed.

[Clownboat]

Still hoping for your input on a couple questions...

Why do you think chickens retain the ability to grow teeth and can you name even one feature of birds that is not found in some other dinosaurs?

Much appreciated!

[Jose Fly]

See Kent Hovind's "Lies in textbooks".

I'm watching the video now, and the first thing he says is "there's no scientific evidence for evolution". That's simply a lie. We see populations evolve new traits, abilities, genetic sequences, and species right before our eyes. We see it happen in the wild and in the lab. We fight it (antibiotic resistance) and exploit it (domestication).

I can't tell you specifically who is lying but someone is...

Hovind is lying. The only question is whether that matters to you, or if you'll just stick with the liar simply because he's telling you what you want to hear.

and the entire theory is based upon falsehoods.

Again, you can't know that. You don't know anything at all about the science of evolutionary biology.

Who and/or where did the first biologist, get his education, training, and experience in biology...from?

Dodge noted.

Anyone who thinks that, over the course of a hundred million years or more, that a reptile will eventually evolve into a bird... effectively knows nothing about biology.

Again, you can't know that because you don't know anything about evolutionary biology. And it appears you are going to continue to commit the sin of pride.

You're not giving a good impression of Christianity here, are you?

There is direct evidence of Jesus being in the Bible.

There is no direct evidence of a reptile evolving into a bird.

False equivalency...and the second time you've fallaciously argued that point.

Hopefully, there is no third.

It seems either the point is entirely lost on you, or your pride is preventing you from seeing the problem with you spouting off about evolutionary biology when you know nothing about it.

I suggest you think about it a bit.

[SiNcE_1985]

I'm watching the video now, and the first thing he says is "there's no scientific evidence for evolution". That's simply a lie.

He's talking about no evidence for macroevolution, and he is correct.

Anyone who disagrees with this, is on Fantasy Island.

We see populations evolve new traits, abilities, genetic sequences, and species right before our eyes. We see it happen in the wild and in the lab. We fight it (antibiotic resistance) and exploit it (domestication).

Well, again, you see what you see.

Hovind is lying. The only question is whether that matters to you, or if you'll just stick with the liar simply because he's telling you what you want to hear.

I reject the notion that he is the one that's lying.

Again, you can't know that. You don't know anything at all about the science of evolutionary biology.

Ok.

Dodge noted.

It's not a dodge. If you actually saw where I was going with it, you would know.

Again, you can't know that because you don't know anything about evolutionary biology. And it appears you are going to continue to commit the sin of pride.

You're not giving a good impression of Christianity here, are you?

Opinions.

It seems either the point is entirely lost on you, or your pride is preventing you from seeing the problem with you spouting off about evolutionary biology when you know nothing about it.

I suggest you think about it a bit.

Sure, whatever you say, pal.

[Jose Fly]

He's talking about no evidence for macroevolution

Nope, he didn't say that. He specifically said "there's no evidence for evolution". That's a lie.

and he is correct.

Anyone who disagrees with this, is on Fantasy Island.

Again you can't know that because you don't know anything about evolutionary biology, yet you continue to be guilty of extreme pride.

Well, again, you see what you see.

Yep, it's called "observed reality". Apparently you expect me to forget what I've seen with my own eyes and studied in my profession, and go with the empty claims of a felon, wife abuser, tax fraud, conspiracy theorist, and liar.

Talk about fantasy land!

I reject the notion that he is the one that's lying.

So that's it? All you have in response is "Nuh uh"?

Such an empty and weak reply should tell you something.

[Clownboat]

I'm watching the video now, and the first thing he says is "there's no scientific evidence for evolution". That's simply a lie.

He's talking about no evidence for macroevolution, and he is correct.

Anyone who disagrees with this, is on Fantasy Island.

We see populations evolve new traits, abilities, genetic sequences, and species right before our eyes. We see it happen in the wild and in the lab. We fight it (antibiotic resistance) and exploit it (domestication).

Well, again, you see what you see.

Hovind is lying. The only question is whether that matters to you, or if you'll just stick with the liar simply because he's telling you what you want to hear.

I reject the notion that he is the one that's lying.

Again, you can't know that. You don't know anything at all about the science of evolutionary biology.

Ok.

Dodge noted.

It's not a dodge. If you actually saw where I was going with it, you would know.

Again, you can't know that because you don't know anything about evolutionary biology. And it appears you are going to continue to commit the sin of pride.

You're not giving a good impression of Christianity here, are you?

Opinions.

It seems either the point is entirely lost on you, or your pride is preventing you from seeing the problem with you spouting off about evolutionary biology when you know nothing about it.

I suggest you think about it a bit.

Sure, whatever you say, pal.

Still hoping for your input on a couple questions...

Why do you think chickens retain the ability to grow teeth and can you name even one feature of birds that is not found in some other dinosaurs?

Much appreciated!

[SiNcE_1985]

Nope, he didn't say that. He specifically said "there's no evidence for evolution". That's a lie.

I'm sure that within the over 2 hour video, he said that microevolution is supported by science...and if he didn't say it on the video, he said it in other contexts on other platforms.

I know, because I've seen/heard him say it.

Again you can't know that because you don't know anything about evolutionary biology, yet you continue to be guilty of extreme pride.

Ok.

Yep, it's called "observed reality". Apparently you expect me to forget what I've seen with my own eyes and studied in my profession

Expect you to forget?

I just said; you see what you see, didn't I?

, and go with the empty claims of a felon, wife abuser, tax fraud, conspiracy theorist, and liar.

Those claims seem full to me.

So that's it? All you have in response is "Nuh uh"?

Such an empty and weak reply should tell you something.

What you call weak replies, is nothing more than me fading away from the discussion..little, by little.

[Jose Fly]

I'm sure that within the over 2 hour video, he said that microevolution is supported by science...and if he didn't say it on the video, he said it in other contexts on other platforms.

I know, because I've seen/heard him say it.

If that's true then he's a terrible speaker when it comes to science, which emphasizes accuracy and preciseness.

But if we all agree that evolution is indeed a fact, that's fine.

I just said; you see what you see, didn't I?

Then we agree that the evolution of new species is just observed reality.

Those claims seem full to me.

It's simply a matter of public record that Hovind is a felon, wife abuser, and tax fraud. His videos show that he's also a conspiracy theorist and liar.

What you call weak replies, is nothing more than me fading away from the discussion..little, by little.

This is where I'm at with Hovind's video....

He says "evolution is not a fact, it's a religion". That's another lie. As we've already established evolution is an observed fact of reality.

He cites a textbook noting that the majority of Christians have no problem with evolution and only a minority of fundamentalists do. He claims that is a lie because (at the time of the video) a majority of American Christians don't agree with evolution. But the textbook didn't specify Americans, it merely referred to Christians as a whole. So either Hovind is somehow ignorant of the existence of Christians outside of America, or he's being deliberately deceitful.

He then claims "evolution is not part of science". That's another lie. As I demonstrated earlier in this thread, our understanding of how evolution occurs and of the relationships between taxa is a fundamental aspect of entire fields of science such as comparative genomics. In my work we utilize our understanding of evolutionary mechanisms such as random mutation and genetic drift to inform our future population management activities, and we utilize our understanding of the evolutionary history of various species to inform other recovery and restoration actions.

That's from the first 10 minutes, and at around that point he starts going on about the Grand Canyon, and concludes by saying that teaching kids anything other than the young-earth creationist belief = lying. I shouldn't have to point out the obvious problem there.

More later.

[SiNcE_1985]

Still hoping for your input on a couple questions...
Why do you think chickens retain the ability to grow teeth

Because that ability has come to dominate their gene pool.

and can you name even one feature of birds that is not found in some other dinosaurs?[/i]

Much appreciated!

I reject the premise that birds are dinosaurs..so to me, the question is loaded with an unproven (and in my opinion, false) assumption.

So, the question, is a loaded question.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/loaded ... mples.html