Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #40]

Socialism and communism appeal to poorer people desiring greater advantages, benefits, and income at the expense of others.

Socialism appeals to working people who want to be able to keep what they earn and not have most of it go to pay the exorbitant salaries of private owners who produce nothing.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #40]

Socialism and communism appeal to poorer people desiring greater advantages, benefits, and income at the expense of others.

Socialism appeals to working people who want to be able to keep what they earn and not have most of it go to pay the exorbitant salaries of private owners who produce nothing.

In free markets what the rich have or obtain does not rob the poor but in socialist governments the poor are allowed to rob the rich to benefit themselves at their expense.

[oldbadger]

[Replying to marke in post #40]

Socialism and communism appeal to poorer people desiring greater advantages, benefits, and income at the expense of others.

Socialism appeals to working people who want to be able to keep what they earn and not have most of it go to pay the exorbitant salaries of private owners who produce nothing.

In free markets what the rich have or obtain does not rob the poor but in socialist governments the poor are allowed to rob the rich to benefit themselves at their expense.

All communist and socialist governments are different from each other, just as capitalist governments all have different characteristics, so there is no single answer.
But I'm always surprised by Christians who seek to withhold from the needy... whatever would Jesus say about that?!

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #42]

In free markets what the rich have or obtain does not rob the poor

https://prospect.org/economy/corporate-welfare-hurts/

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #40]

Socialism and communism appeal to poorer people desiring greater advantages, benefits, and income at the expense of others.

Socialism appeals to working people who want to be able to keep what they earn and not have most of it go to pay the exorbitant salaries of private owners who produce nothing.

In free markets what the rich have or obtain does not rob the poor but in socialist governments the poor are allowed to rob the rich to benefit themselves at their expense.

All communist and socialist governments are different from each other, just as capitalist governments all have different characteristics, so there is no single answer.
But I'm always surprised by Christians who seek to withhold from the needy... whatever would Jesus say about that?!

Are Christians wrong to oppose government plans to fleece the rich to redistribute the rich's wealth to the poor?

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #42]

In free markets what the rich have or obtain does not rob the poor

https://prospect.org/economy/corporate-welfare-hurts/

Governments that place heavy tax and regulation burdens on energy companies effectively drive energy costs up for poor people and others. How does that help the poor?

[William]

The Economic Context: Capitalisms Failure to Deliver Stability
Richard Wolffs analysis of world history and economics highlights the cyclical nature of empireshow they rise through economic expansion and fall when contradictions within the system lead to crisis. The U.S. is now experiencing this decline, similar to past empires like Rome or Britain. A core reason for this decline is the extreme concentration of wealth and power, which capitalism inherently produces.

This aligns with Wolffs argument that capitalisms reliance on profit maximization leads to growing inequality, unstable economies, and the eventual alienation of the working class. As the U.S. faces worsening economic instability, traditional capitalist structures become less viable, and alternative economic models become necessary.

Socialism as a Transition, Not an End Goal
You stated earlier that socialism is a placeholder for capitalisms search for a path to communism. Wolff also argues that socialism is not a fixed system but a process of democratizing the economya necessary correction to capitalisms failings.

Rather than state socialism (which centralizes economic control in the government), Wolff advocates for a worker-owned model, such as worker cooperatives, where production is collectively managed rather than controlled by private owners or the state. This model challenges the standard capitalist assumption that economic power should be concentrated in the hands of a few.

This cooperative, community-based economic approach aligns more with the ethical teachings of Jesus than either capitalism or traditional state socialism. Jesus' teachings on wealth redistribution (e.g., "sell what you have and give to the poor") and his criticisms of the rich indicate a concern for economic justice. However, instead of advocating for top-down state control, Jesus' message could be interpreted as promoting collective responsibility and ethical economic behavior, which worker cooperatives embody.

The U.S. Decline and the Moral Question
The OPs question challenges the practicality of moral economic systems, implying that following high moral standards could lead to a dysfunctional society. However, Wolffs analysis suggests the opposite: the moral crisis in the U.S. is due to capitalism's structural inequalities, not from too much socialism.

If the U.S. economy continues on its current trajectory, with growing corporate control, wealth concentration, and worker disempowerment, social decay is inevitable.
The working class is beginning to recognize this, as seen in the resurgence of labor movements at Amazon, Starbucks, and other major corporations.
The U.S. is already becoming a bad place to live for many due to debt, lack of social safety nets, and exploitative labor conditionsall products of unchecked capitalism, not socialism.
Instead of asking whether we would move to a place where high morality makes life difficult, a more relevant question is: Can a capitalist system sustain a moral society at all? Wolffs work suggests that without fundamental changes to economic structures, morality will always take a backseat to profit.

Conclusion: Toward a Democratic Economy
To tie this back to my original point, Wolffs economic analysis supports the idea that socialism isnt a utopian goal but a transitional stage necessary for economic democratization. If capitalism remains unchecked, society will continue to experience deepening inequality, systemic crises, and declinejust as past empires did.

If we take Jesus' teachings seriouslynot just as a moral framework but as an economic critiquethen a worker-driven economic model, rather than top-down capitalism or authoritarian socialism, is the closest we can get to an ethical system.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #47]

a worker-driven economic model, rather than top-down capitalism or authoritarian socialism

The thing is, socialism by its nature isn't authoritarian. State socialism is essentially communism; the worker-oriented socialism that you're talking about is the real socialism.

And socialism doesn't have to be utopian to be a goal. One commentator opined----rightly, I believe----that socialism doesn't have to be perfect; it's enough for it to be better than what we have now.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #46]

Governments that place heavy tax and regulation burdens on energy companies effectively drive energy costs up for poor people and others. How does that help the poor?

Regulations are necessary to preserve the environment. And if workers ran industry as their own bosses, costs would be offset by workers keeping more of their wages rather than having to fund management-class salaries.

[oldbadger]

Are Christians wrong to oppose government plans to fleece the rich to redistribute the rich's wealth to the poor?

Honestly!!! Whatever would Jesus tell you!
Some Christians seem to mash up their religion with their politics, whom I think of as some kind of Pharisees.

Whyever would rich Christians withhold basic needs from the less well off?

Mammon hugging Christians can't be Christians...can they?